well, the important thing for ppl that care about these sort of things is not to get weirded out when other races claim multiracial celebrities too. i had a friend who knew some black students that who were not pleased that tiger woods was claimed by asian students as well-since he was a black golfer first and foremost in their mind. to them, he "looked black" (as oprah said, "people see a black man"). of course, many asians assert that tiger looks pretty asian, and his hair is curly, not kinky. he is half asian, only 1/4 black.

275? that's not stunning for a man his size. maybe if he were older.

I don't know many 51 year old men that can bench 275. Actually, I don't know many 20 year old's that can lift that much.

Besides, it doesn't indicate if that's his 1 rep max, or whether he does 275 for mulitple reps. Keep in mind that it's acutally harder for tall men with long arms to bench.

Looks like a poster child for hybrid vigor :-). Actually I find it interesting that his face retains strong identifiable characteristics from both lineages - he really does look half-black, half-chinese.

you don't know many men that can bench 275, yet you call yourself the alpha male?

:)

just poking a little fun at you.

in all seriousness.

i'm pretty sure the article meant his one rep max is 275.

i know a lot of people who can do that. most high school football teams have a few teenagers who can bench 275. no need to move up to division I athletes in their 20s.

i can go down to my gym most days and pull out 5 guys who can bench 275. we don't actually have to hunt for the guys who really ARE strong.

as for him being 50. men don't peak for strength until their 30s. and it declines slowly. true, men who lifted in their 20s and 30s tend to stop lifting in their 40s. so it's not often you see a guy at 50 hitting the iron. however. at that point you're down to the serious lifters who were always strong. 275 would not be unusual for a guy still lifting in his 50s.

as for him being 6-4. yes, height can be a disadvantage. when lifting serious weight. 275 is not enough weight for his height to have an important effect though.

height is not always a disadvantage though. there's always ryan kennelly. at 6-2 and 290, he is the strongest bencher in the world. his best lift is a mind boggling 800 pounds.

here's ryan pressing 780.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/rkennelly.ram

alpha:
"I don't know many 51 year old men that can bench 275. Actually, I don't know many 20 year old's that can lift that much."

275 is pretty good for his age, but I am less impressed with it considering how big he is, his weight and how long he's been seriously lifting.

I'm only ~5'8. I'm in my late 20's and have only been lifting for ~4yrs. When I started, I could barely do 40lbs on the bar. I can 200 on dumbell press (much harder than the bar) and 190lbs on incline dumbell press (again, harder). I am only ~175lbs (weighed ~110-115lbs after puberty). If I were even close to this guy's wt and height, I would be doing 300lbs on the standard bar bench press. I don't really try to max out so all the above numbers come from sequential sets. But, I was fooling around the other day and (again in the last of a 5 set routine) I was doing 245lbsx4 on decline bar press. Granted, IMO the decline is easier than the standard bench or incline.

Still, I think most weightlifters at my gym would be not completely impressed with his feats relative to his size. This, of course, assumes he was maxing at 275lbs, that he was not doing dumbells (much harder than bar) and that this was the most weights he had ever lifted (i.e. he wasn't lifting a lot more when younger).

"Besides, it doesn't indicate if that's his 1 rep max, or whether he does 275 for mulitple reps. Keep in mind that it's acutally harder for tall men with long arms to bench. "

IMO, the tall man theory is laregly bullsh*t. Yes, it might be true if you're tall and lanky. But, if you're tall and thick- set you're going to be powerful. At that point, whatever you have to work more for with longer arms is going to be more than offset by increased thickness and longitudinal size of those arms. That is why the strongest men in professional sports, the offensive line in football is loaded with tall, heavy set guys who can bench press a truck. Short guys get decimated by this level of power so aren't found there, by and large.

This tall man statement is really a defense for tall, skinny and, usually, wimpy guys who don't eat right and spend more time talking in the gym than actually trying to work out.

I love it when little debates like this happen to sidetrack a topic. :)

I trust we're all talking about free weight bench presses vs. machine presses (which are easier).

jody and -R:

Maybe Americans are stronger than Canadians. :)

Or maybe they have better access to better "gear" and "supplements". :)

"height is not always a disadvantage though. there's always ryan kennelly. at 6-2 and 290, he is the strongest bencher in the world. his best lift is a mind boggling 800 pounds."

I was a serious strength trainer/power lifter (but not nearly genetically gifted enough to compete) for about 6 years, and have been around hardcore gyms for quite awhile. I followed some of the strength training protocols of Tudor Brompa (currently a trainer at York University here in Toronto, if i'm not mistaken, for a hefty fee), and Charles Polliquin - those guys know their shit when it comes to the science of strength. Having said that I've been around enough to know that guys like ryan kennelly are on "mind boggling" amounts of ahhhh... ummm.... "chemical helpers". A lifter's helpers more than offset any height disadvantages.

"as for him being 6-4. yes, height can be a disadvantage. when lifting serious weight. 275 is not enough weight for his height to have an important effect though."

Besides, muscle size is just one factor in determining strength:

1.) There's fiber type - of which there are the two main types - Type I and Type II - Type II and the various subtypes(Type IIb is the one primarily used in pure explosive 1 rep type reps) used primarily for anerobic activity and then there's Type I that involved in endurance activities, then there's intermediate types, but i believe we don't have many of those (correct me if i'm wrong). Fiber type is primarily fixed genetically, but there is evidence that training has an effect (albeit limited) on converting one type to another type. I remember reading that some growth factors(GH, IGF-1, and MGF) and even Testosterone(to a much lesser degree) may play a role in changing one Fiber type to another.

2.) Then there's the amount of muscle fiber's you have, which is primarily set genetically, but again there's evidence to suggest that some growth factors(GH, IGF-1, and MGF) and even Testosterone(to a much lesser degree) may play a role in increasing the amount of fibers you have.

3.) Finally, there's reaction time, which is EXTREMELY important in power. I remember reading an article by Poloquin that stated that reaction time was at least 80% genetically set (he had the references to the studies, but i can't remember them). I believe Jensen alludes to the genetic inheretance of reaction time in chronometric studies of intelligence in "the g Factor" with similiar results.

4.) Circulating androgen levels have a small but measurable effect on strength and power.

So, all other things equal - a bigger muscle is the stronger muscle, but size is not the primary factor in determining power and strength - fiber type, fiber amount, body mechanics and reaction time are. Also, consider that if you compare a guy like ryan kenelly to say a lightweight olympic lifter who placed in the top ten at the world's or the Olympic's, he would probably pale in a pound for pound stregth comparison. It's a case of diminishing returns.

You put on your first 5 pounds of muscle and strength increases 25%. But then you put on another 5 pounds of muscle and your strength goes up 18 %. The more muscle you're putting on is resulting in lesser (both in absolute and relative terms) strength gains.

"275 is pretty good for his age, but I am less impressed with it considering how big he is, his weight and how long he's been seriously lifting."

You're forgetting that he mentions in the article, that he aims more for endurance now than strength. Also, refer to my prior points above.

"i can go down to my gym most days and pull out 5 guys who can bench 275. we don't actually have to hunt for the guys who really ARE strong."

Guys working out at gyms aren't representative of the general pop. Do those guys have jobs? Alot of bodybuilders and strength athletes either are professionals or want to be professionals at that sort of thing or they're bums that don't do anything else but workout - i know - i was one of them for a few years - :) Are those guys on "gear"? If they were on "gear", would they admit it? Have they ever been on "gear"? Cause, contrary to popular wisdon, the effects of "gear" stick around for quite awhile after you've did them. If you quit gear and u're haven't become "freakishly" big (read professinal wrestler, bodybuilder, football player etc)you will keep all your gains from roids if you continue to train and eat properly (this depends on how many cycles you've did - the more cycles you do, the harder it is the keep all the gains from steroids - but the first 3 or 4 cycles are no problem as far as keeping gains). What is rate of steroid use among High School football players and men who frequent gyms?

Also, where do you live? California? Texas? I ask because I had a friend years ago from Texas who was going to UofT. He was 6'4" and he used to comment on how small me and my white hick friends were (we probably averaged 5'11). He said the dudes in Texas were tall and heavily built. Also, I hear that in California, bodybuilding and weightlifting are very popular. It's not nearly as popular in Ontario Canada. That would mean you might have a larger sample to work from. Ethnicity also plays a part in strength. Certain European types and West African's in my own personal experience contain more memebers of their respective populations in the "freak" zone of musculature and strength.

The most i could ever bench was 355 and I was "huge" compared to the average guy - even to the average roid guy. I just sucked at bench press - again - probably because of fiber type/mechanical disadvantages etc... Then again, I could bench more than 95% of the non-steroid (this includes people who had never taken roids in the past)taking weightlifters even when I could only bench 275.

"That is why the strongest men in professional sports, the offensive line in football is loaded with tall, heavy set guys who can bench press a truck. Short guys get decimated by this level of power so aren't found there, by and large."

...Androgens and other exotic chemicals combined with natural athleticism (which also contributes to strength), muscle fiber type (football players are probably outliers in terms of Type II fibers)) Also, absolute strength (as opposed to pound for pound strength) and bulk are also neccessary for success in those positions.

"This tall man statement is really a defense for tall, skinny and, usually, wimpy guys who don't eat right and spend more time talking in the gym than actually trying to work out."

I think it's physics - a longer arm muscle has to lower the weight and lift the weight over a greater distance. Again - lets analyze the lightweight (and usually short statured) Olympic lifters - pound for pound they'd kick the fat.. um i mean larger heavyweights ass in when comparing pound for pound strength. In highschool - I had a friend who was/is 5'4" - he was really strong - I am 6'1" now, so I was always taller than him. I was also alot weaker than him - but i am faster, and in wrestling/boxing etc.. i, to use the common teenage vernacular, "could take him". No - I haven't been skinny since i was a about 12, I have been big and muscular since i was 17 - but i suck at bench and squats relative to my muscle size - it comes down to body mechanics and the factors i mentioned in the previous post -not whether u're, to quote -R, "wimpy".

Speaking of wimpy, i have a 130 lb friend, who can take probably beat to death any of those strong guys(provided they don't know BJJ or Greco-Roman Wrestling etc..) at your gym - i'm serious.

The reason is because my friend knows BJJ, Greco-Roman Wrestling, boxing/muay-tuay - he's a professional mma/nhb fighter and although he's had two bad fights recently - he's very good.

-R, I hope you were joking when you made that stmt cause it's lame. Who stronger than who and who can take who is kind of meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Training for BJJ/Greco-Roman/MMA is fucking 50 times harder than lifting weights. But to me that's meaningless - cause i don't give a shit - Besides, Bill Gates is "wimpy" but I'd rather have Mr. Gates IQ and physique than superhuman strength or my friends fighting abilities, or for that matter - money. I guess it's just that i value intellect much more than anything.

That said, this Chin dude probably has alot more important things to deal with than his bench press - He's a fucking Billionaire for christ sakes.

My statement:
"This tall man statement is really a defense for tall, skinny and, usually, wimpy guys who don't eat right and spend more time talking in the gym than actually trying to work out."

alpha:
"-R, I hope you were joking when you made that stmt cause it's lame. Who stronger than who and who can take who is kind of meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Training for BJJ/Greco-Roman/MMA is fucking 50 times harder than lifting weights. But to me that's meaningless - cause i don't give a shit - Besides, Bill Gates is "wimpy" but I'd rather have Mr. Gates IQ and physique than superhuman strength or my friends fighting abilities, or for that matter - money. I guess it's just that i value intellect much more than anything."

Thanks for educating me on some of the facts I didn't know about muscle biology.

Anyway, this is a public forum and I'm not directing my statement at anyone in particular so I didn't feel the need to sound tactful. I've never wrestled so I'll take your word for it that it's harder than lifting. I also value intellect more than lifting and never meant to imply that Gates or Chin should start focusing more on lifting over what they are doing. That statement had more to do with guys at my old gym who would take hours to finish a 45-60 min workout b/c they seemed to come to the gym to socialize. For some reason, that just really got on my nerves. I doubt they were Greco- Roman wrestlers or setting up their own computer companies/ hedge funds. That said, it is still possible to be a high IQ productive member of society and still a wimp. Hell, before I started working out, I was a classic geeky short wimp- and that had nothing to do with my or any other classic geeky short wimp's moral worth.

For the record, I think one of the most insidious things in American culture over the past 20 years is the proliferation of sarcastic humor designed to crack a joke at someone else's expense. I didn't feel I was doing that with the above statement since it was not specific.

I think i got carried away with myself. :)

"I was a serious strength trainer/power lifter for about 6 years"

ok. but then it would be unusual that you don't know many people who can bench 275.

"I've been around enough to know that guys like ryan kennelly are on "mind boggling" amounts of..."

i'm not convinced ryan is a heavy drug user. of course i don't know for sure. i do know there a drug free guys who can hit 700.

"Besides, muscle size is just one factor in determining strength"

sure. that's why world's strongest man does not usually include bodybuilders. gunter schlierkamp would probably not be strong enough. manfred hoeberl on the other hand...

"Also, consider that if you compare a guy like ryan kenelly to say a lightweight olympic lifter"

not sure how power-weight ratio is relevant.

"Guys working out at gyms aren't representative of the general pop"

they aren't? sure, not at a hardcore gym or a division I gym. but my 5 guys are not from one of those gyms.

"Do those guys have jobs?"

sure.

"Alot of bodybuilders and strength athletes either are professionals or want to be professionals at that sort of thing"

naturally. we have these types at the gym too. they are the ones i was referring to before - the guys who really ARE strong. the guys who rep 315. and up.

"Are those guys on "gear"?"

beats me. the 275 guys won't be though.

not all strong guys are on drugs. i have personal friends who weigh about 230 and rep 315 without drugs. supplements. yes. drugs. no. one of them is even from texas! (hint - americans from texas are not significantly bigger than other americans)

"What is the rate of steroid use among High School football players"

beats me. not too high i'd guess though. you really only have to go to a high school with about 1000 students to encounter 18 year old guys benching 275 without drugs. honest.

"Also, where do you live?"

used to live in pittsburgh. then went division I for swimming. my brother also coaches the university of pittsburgh swim team. so i saw division I gyms and athletes. maybe my perspective is skewed.

also lifted at a hardcore gym in downtown pittsburgh for a year. i agree that would not be representative of the general population.

now i live in las vegas and lift at 24 hour fitness. no problem finding 275 benchers there. and it's no hardcore gym.

"Also, I hear that in California, bodybuilding and weightlifting are very popular."

i'm 45 minutes from california.

"Ethnicity also plays a part in strength."

get outta here! really? :)

it's pretty obvious once the big white and black guys are lifting next to the mexicans and asians that there might be something to this "race" thing.

"i have a 130 lb friend, who can take probably beat to death any of those strong guys at your gym"

oh, i seriously doubt that. ouch. it could be bad.

Interesting. I come back from interviews and see this.

Well. I'm not 51. I do reps at 225 (2 sets of 8 reps). I weigh 180 lbs and am just shy of 6'2".

It's not that unusual. Maybe I'm used to hanging out with track guys, but any sprinter (like I was) could bench 250ish at least--and most of us are about 5'10 to 6'2" and 160-190 lbs. Of course leg strength and flexibility is more important, but upper body does help move you along.

"i'm not convinced ryan is a heavy drug user. of course i don't know for sure. i do know there a drug free guys who can hit 700."

hahahahaha - ok - either u're egging me on or u're deluded - i have not seen or met anyone - ever - who could lift a 700 lbs bench "clean". If you want to believe that - go ahead. I'm sure you also believe pro bodybuilders get as big as they do by taking creatine with protein shakes.

"ok. but then it would be unusual that you don't know many people who can bench 275."

I was referring to the guys who weren't on "gear".

"beats me. the 275 guys won't be though."

that's a stupid statement - from my observations most white males who have been lifting weights "clean" for a few years can't lift 275. They just can't - i don't know what

beats me. not too high i'd guess though. you really only have to go to a high school with about 1000 students to encounter 18 year old guys benching 275 without drugs. honest.

American teens must be stronger than Canadian teens - seriously.

"oh, i seriously doubt that. ouch. it could be bad."

Take a look at a UFC or any other mma or nhb show.

At this point I've determined that you are either egging me on, or just ignorant of a few things because nobody could be that obtuse.

the above statement I made:

"that's a stupid statement - from my observations most white males who have been lifting weights "clean" for a few years can't lift 275. They just can't - i don't know what"

should read:

from my observations most white males who have been lifting weights "clean" for a few years can't lift 275. They just can't - nothing they do, short of gear can get them past 225.

David:

There was a black sprinter from the US that used to work out at a gym where I did. He was going to college here. He could do 275 for reps of 6-8 easily. He was around 20 or so - but he was, - at least to us, a very strong guy for his weight (6'2", 180). I just haven't met many guys who are capable of doing what he does.

"Interesting. I come back from interviews and see this."

If you mean that this debate is uninteresting - i agree.

"i have not seen or met anyone - ever - who could lift a 700 lbs bench clean."

guys who have hit 700:

ryan kennelly 6-2 290 800
anthony clark 5-8 350 800
scot mendelson ? 314 782
jamie harris 5-11 360 772
tim isaac 6-1 275 771
bill crawford ? 275 750
chris confessore 5-4 236 741
rob fusner ? 308 735
garry frank 6-4 390 735
george halbert ? 215 733
sebastian burns 5-8 267 725
glen chabot ? 308 722
clay brandenburg 5-11 390 722
rob capozzolo 5-7 240 715
john zemmin ? 275 711
james henderson 6-4 385 711
kenny patterson ? 242 710
joel toranzo ? 275 710
j.m. blakley ? 308 710
craig tokarski ? 275 705
larry allen 6-3 330 700

james henderson did not use drugs. scot mendelson did 620 without drugs when he was 21. glen chabot is going for 711 without drugs this month. anthony clark was known to be on drugs though.

doesn't it seem reasonable that a 350 pound monster could work up to a 700 pound bench without drugs? that's double body weight. people can do double body weight.

ok. george halbert could be on drugs. 733@215 is not human. google louie simmons and the westside barbell club in columbus, ohio for george's gym.

"I'm sure you also believe pro bodybuilders get as big as they do by taking creatine with protein shakes."

it's clear ron coleman and the gang use steroids. they don't hide it. schlierkamp is 6-1, 300, with like 8% fat. that's steroid induced hypertrophy.

but you'll notice the 700 pound benchers are not ripped. maybe some of them don't use drugs?

"that's a stupid statement - from my observations most white males who have been lifting weights clean for a few years can't lift 275. They just can't"

that was diplomatic!

we seem to be in different worlds. i know white men who are not huge who bench 275 without drugs. my brother is 5-9 and did 275@180 when he was 20. some of his friends are stronger and did not even play division I sports. in fact my high school football team gave a shirt to each guy who benched over 250 and even had a few shirts for the guys who benched over 300. it is not rare for white high school athletes in football and wrestling and baseball to bench 275.

also note all the lifters who can hit 700 are white, except clark who is samoan, and henderson and allen who are black.

"American teens must be stronger than Canadian teens"

not necessarily. maybe the canadians are lifting good too. check out a high school team when they train.

"Take a look at a UFC or any other mma or nhb show."

been watching UFC since the first show back in 1993. i liked frank shamrock, personally. he took ortiz.

don't send your friend here. if he picked a fight with a random big guy at my gym he could get hurt bad. plus there are pro football players at my gym. the biggest being jon ogden from the baltimore ravens at 6-9 and 340. there are also bouncers at my gym who work at the strip clubs in vegas. they are paid to bear hug and body slam guys who weigh a 100 pounds more than your friend. they would smash most of the 185 pound guys in the UFC.

"At this point I've determined that you are either egging me on, or just ignorant of a few things because nobody could be that obtuse."

he called me obtuse!

"james henderson did not use drugs. scot mendelson did 620 without drugs when he was 21. glen chabot is going for 711 without drugs this month. anthony clark was known to be on drugs though."

You honestly think that most of those guys would admit to using drugs? Do you know these guys? Would they tell you they do steroids even if they did? I knew one guy personally who was taking steroids who didn't admit it to anyone - and they weren't even amateur athletes.

Drug tests are generally a joke - beating them is easy - people generally fail drug test cause they're either stupid or a new test for the drug or masking agent had been developed and the athlete wasn't aware of it.

Ben Johnson denied drug use until well after he was caught. After his second or third drug failure (for Testosterone), his excuse was because,if i remember correctly, he had sex and a beer the night before the test, therefore elevating his T levels.

"doesn't it seem reasonable that a 350 pound monster could work up to a 700 pound bench without drugs? that's double body weight. people can do double body weight."

Unless you've got some type of genetic anomaly like a Belgian Blue Bull, u're not going to put on the muscle in the amounts u're indicating without drugs. Most 350+ pound people are just fat.

"they would smash most of the 185 pound guys in the UFC."

Assuming they aren't good greco/freestyle wrestlers or BJJ i kind of doubt it.

Yeah - all big dummies say things like that. I worked as a bouncer while in University - a guy who I was working with was an extremely big dude and he played Junior B hockey or something when he was young and Football when he was young and he was a very big guy and he was a very strong guy and he said the same thing u're saying. The thing is - he's stupid - a few people even told him that - he didn't listen.

I'm not planning on sending any friends anywhere. I was pointing out that training in a sport is tougher than lifting weights. I was trying to make a point - bench press != manhood. Neither does how good a fighter you are -i thought i made that point clear. Maybe i was wrong.

UFC 30 - Mark Robinson vs Bobby Hoffman-

Here's Mark David Robinson's (6' 300 lbs) stats regarding weightlifing:

South African Powerlifting Champion 1983, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88

World Powerlifting Champion 1990

South African Strongman Champion 1984, 86, 88, 89, 90

Second Place South African Strongman Contest 1996
All African double deadlift record (675 kg/1485 lbs.)

Team Strongman Championship 1999

He had a fight with Bobby Hoffman - 6'2" 245lbs at ufc 30. Now Robinson was apparently a fairly good wrestler and Judo player. It still didn't matter.

Hoffman knocks out Big Robinson and after says something to the effect: "Go back to lifting some fucking weights you fat fuck" - he said it live - don't know if it's on the tape.

The funny thing is the match is now considered a no contest because Hoffman got tested for steroids. Ouch that must hurt.
"but you'll notice the 700 pound benchers are not ripped. maybe some of them don't use drugs?"

Franz Boas (the south african boxer) or whatever his name is was under a suspension because he tested positive for nandralone i think it was. He wasn't particularly ripped - he was fat - he didn't even look that muscular.

this is what i said:
"Actually, I don't know many 20 year old's that can lift that much."

I didn't say there are no white guys that can lift 275 clean - just that there aren't many - at least where i grew up - and i still stand by that - i just don't see to many guys lifting that much. Out of my High School I can remember A FEW guys - maybe two who could lift like that - one or two out of a school of two thousand.

OJ Santiago of, i think the Ravens (he had at least a few seasons in the NFL), used to go to my highschool - same advanced chemistry class. He was a star athlete - in basketball and track - don't think he played football back then. I think he was somewhere around 6'7 or taller and skinny. He ends up at some unbelievable weight playing for the, Ravens, i think. A few friends made the comment "What's he been taking?" If you seen him when he was a teen (around 17) - i mean - i just can't see him getting as big as he did. But who knows?

Didn't know him too well and I can't say whether someone is on steroids or not. It's just my personal experience from working out in that type of culture - i'm skeptical. I see people lie about their drug use - with good reason - it's against the law and it can get someone banned for life from sport.

actually - i've been thinking jody - u're right i'm wrong - i apologize for any comments that were uncalled for.

I'll drop this subject.

hahahaha I wrote - "Franz Boas (the south african boxer)"

I've been spending too much time on anthropology sites - it should read "Francis Botha" (uh i think).

Jody's right.

In high school we had a wall for guys who benched over 300. Why? Because there were too many guys who could bench in the mid 200's. And that included plenty of white guys. Guys with names like Janikowski, Klug, Potrykus, Busatieri and Flaherty.

Maybe you didn't go to a sports-obsessed high school, but I can think of a half dozen guys off the top of my head (out of a class of just under 200) who could bench 300 in high school.

Of course, sports participation in my high school was practically mandatory. Only the smoker/metalhead crowd didn't do sports (and even a few of them did).

And power/weight ratios in track are, I'll admit, quite high. However, drug-free white guys my size could easily bench in the mid 200's or close to 300. Go talk to high school pole vaulters....I'll bet you'll start finding white dudes who can bench surprising amounts for their weight.

David

james henderson and glen chabot voluntarily submit to drug tests to see who can bench the most without drugs. they even lift without bench shirts. for them it's a matter of pride. why would they lie about drugs? they are already out lifted by smaller men, so their goal is clearly not to be the strongest. there's NO reason for them to take drugs, it goes against what they're trying to do.

i also believe kennelly and mendelson already bench so much that, even if they are on drugs, they could stop and still hit 700.

"Ben Johnson denied drug use until well after he was caught"

maurice green and tim montgomery have also run 9.79 in the 100. they must be on drugs too. let's cut to the chase and expose michael johnson once and for all. 19.32 in the 200? must be the druuuuuugs.

"Unless you've got some type of genetic anomaly like a Belgian Blue Bull"

we're talking about guys who can bench 700 pounds. of course they are genetic anomalies.

"Most 350+ pound people are just fat."

true. but guys who bench 700 are one in a million. muscular 350 pound men are well within the bounds of the discussion.

as for your comments about wrestlers. i thought you'd say something like that.

wrestlers are the best fighters. but it won't matter if your friend is the best freestyle wrestler who ever lived. at 130 pounds he will get absolutely pulverized by a 250 pound bouncer. that's ONE HUNDRED TWENTY pounds weight difference. have you seen a real bouncer in action? there is no escape from that bear hug. if somebody wants to clinch you can NOT stop them.

why do you think UFC has weight classes now? because they figured out SIZE MATTERS.

i love how you bring up 240 pound guys like they're the same as your friend. at least you could have brought up wrestlers who really kick ass like couture, coleman, and kerr. in fact you didn't even bring up an example of ground and pound. hoffman hit the guy with standing elbows. your friend won't hit a thing except maybe his head on the bouncer's knee if he tries to single leg.

also, next time you pick a fight for an example, pick one where the big guy knows how to fight. hoffman had more than 20 fights before UFC 30. robinson had one, or none, depending on the source. bouncers do real fights frequently.

you take me for somebody who doesn't know what happens in real fights, when i've been watching UFC for TEN YEARS and have been in many real fights myself.

"I was trying to make a point - bench press != manhood. Neither does how good a fighter you are"

our exchange has been solely about whether benching 275 is common and whether a man can bench 700 without drugs. it has been a good debate. thanks and keep lifting. good luck to your friend in the UFC.

I think some white guys think that I was singling out whites as weak.

Also - i stated:

"Certain European types and West African's in my own personal experience contain more memebers of their respective populations in the "freak" zone of musculature and strength."

BTW - when i state white guys, it's because I went to a high school that was at least 85% white - the town where i gew up was about 90% white - I've lived in Toronto(less whites proportionally and more non-white) for less than 4 years so white male is my reference.

I have seen many Croatians/Serbians that are very very big and strong naturally - Dutchmen seem to be unusually big and strong.

But again - David and Jody are right.