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February 04, 2003

Jungle Fever

Joan Walsh has a nice piece over at Salon on race-mixing. You can read it if you watch a commercial. Many of her questions wouldn't be left hanging in the air if she was open to ideas of human biodiversity, but you can fill in the blanks....

Razib updates: Check out this site that notes the race of the wives of 2001 NBA all-stars, they are mostly African-American. So I think we can rule out income is the prime determinant of why blacks making over $100,000 marry whites as often as other blacks. Here are the players married to non-blacks:


Jason Kidd, Married to Arabic-Indian woman
Kobe Byrant, Married to Caucasian
Tim Duncan, Married to Caucasian
Karl Malone, Married to Filippino woman
David Robinson, Married to Hispanic woman

Kidd is biracial, but I've seen his father in an interview, and he is probably half-white by ancestry, so kid is only 1/4 black (Also, his wife is Lebanese from what I know, but she is rather dark-skinned [darker than Kidd], so it is not implausible that she is part Indian, but it might just be the website not making a distinction between the two groups). Duncan is rather light-skinned. David Robinson & Kobe Bryant are both from middle-class homes. Robinson scored over a 1300 (before recentering to 1000 in 1996!) on his SAT and receieved a math degree from the Naval Academy. Kobe scored an 1150 (the average African-American score is ~850-860) and has a cosmopolitan upbringing (lots of time in Europe). And Karl Malone is a self-identifying "black redneck." I think we can conclude that the NBA players that married non-African-Americans are outliers....

Posted by razib at 11:39 PM




But it might also mean that men and women inclined to marry outside their race have other traits -- curiosity? courage? self-confidence? -- that make them materially successful.

Try intelligence...blacks & whites matched for intelligence can probably get along just as well as Asians and whites, as most social pathologies are largely or at least in part functions of a lack of intelligence...

Posted by: knockingonthedoor at February 4, 2003 11:59 PM


When a black woman marries a white man, it seems to me that the black woman is always half-black with a white mother. It makes sense: first a black man marries a white woman, then the daughter socially identifies with her mother, and then the daughter marries a white man. Most white men find half-black women to be extremely attractive (Halle Berry, Vanessa Williams, Mariah Carey), but it is rare for a white guy to marry a very dark black woman.

In the long run, ALL DESCENDANTS OF WEALTHY BLACKS WILL END UP BEING WHITE (or maybe Hispanic, Asian, or mixed). Granted, it may not happen unidirectionally-- for example, if the half-black daughter of a wealthy black man and his white wife ends up marrying a black man, then the daughter's children will be darker than herself (although the children will still be ligher than their grandfather). But with enough generations, there will be enough marriages of black males in the family marrying lighter skinned women that the "blackness" of the "original wealthy black man" will have dissapeared.

I used to scoff at the idea that interracial marriage contributes to poverty among blacks, but after having thought about this, I have changed my mind and I think that it is indeed a huge factor.

Posted by: WD at February 5, 2003 12:31 AM


WD: Most white men find half-black women to be extremely attractive (Halle Berry, Vanessa Williams, Mariah Carey), but it is rare for a white guy to marry a very dark black woman.

JS: In our brave new non-racist age--don't most white guys who talk up Halle Berry to sort of prove that they do, in fact, like black chicks? Even though they don't, so they pick the whitest-looking person who identifies herself as black they can think of. Which may explain why such a vapid actress has risen to such prominence: she fills a role, so to speak. Despite Garcelle Beauvais being about ten thousands times more attractive. Or Angela Bassett, for that matter. Lousy X-Men ruining Halle Berry grumble....

Posted by: Justin Slotman at February 5, 2003 07:52 AM


Frequently, these half-black girls who marry white men are the daughters of parents who never married. Often the dad got mama pregnant and split. I think a lot of these fatherless biracial black girls come to the conclusion, based on their fathers' treatment of the mothers, that black men are unreliable and better avoided.

Posted by: duende at February 5, 2003 07:53 AM


You guys got it all wrong. Doncha know, "Black is a state of mind."

Posted by: Brandy at February 5, 2003 11:04 AM


dude,

i think we can all agree that different individuals have different tastes. you're free to have/express you opinion-but show a little sensativity (christ, i can't believe i'm saying this!). but i think generally african features are not found as attractive for most non-african origin males in the united states-on average. on the other hand, there is far less penalty for black men, and their cut physiques tend to give them a leg up.

Posted by: razib at February 5, 2003 12:42 PM


Alright, I apologize.

Posted by: Oleg at February 5, 2003 01:15 PM


While some biracial women like Halle Berry and Vanessa Williams are often cited as attractive black women, being biracial doesn't automatically translate into attractiveness. Mariah Carey does nothing for me, but I would be very tempted to sell my soul for a chance to date SI Swimsuit model, Roshumba Williams.

Posted by: KXB at February 5, 2003 01:47 PM


One interesting trend to watch for is the effect of the education gap between black men and women. The rate of black men enrolling in college already lags behind black women, and by the time you look at graduate and professional schools, that gap almost becomes a chasm. Since women generally do not date or marry below their education level, well-educated black women will find themselves alone if they wait for an equally well educated black man. At this upper end, I'm guessing we'll see an increasing number of black women taking on equally well-educated, non-black partners. But this still leaves an even larger number of less educated black women with poor options.

Posted by: KXB at February 5, 2003 02:16 PM


one point on mariah carey-her father is i believe afro-venazualan, so he almost certainly isn't 100% black, but a mix of black, amerindian & white. i remember seeing pictures of an upper class "mulatto" family in south carolina from the turn of the century, the children were 1/4 cherokee, 1/4 black and 1/2 white-mariah carey looks a lot like they did.

Posted by: razib at February 5, 2003 03:53 PM


Oleg:
"Most white men find half-black women to be extremely attractive (Halle Berry, Vanessa Williams, Mariah Carey)

Speak for yourself, dude. These women are rare exceptions to the black = ugly rule."

Razib:
"i think we can all agree that different individuals have different tastes. you're free to have/express you opinion-but show a little sensativity (christ, i can't believe i'm saying this!). but i think generally african features are not found as attractive for most non-african origin males in the united states-on average. on the other hand, there is far less penalty for black men, and their cut physiques tend to give them a leg up."

In defense of Oleg, he didn't say this directly in front of anyone in public, but I agree that it is needlessly inflammatory to say all black = ugly, even if you feel it is true.

The problem is that there is no easy way of saying that you find the defining traits of a particular race unattractive all or almost all the time. When discussing black people in this country, the issue is even more sensitive due to history.

I have heard from various non- Black peoples (often Indian or Oriental) that they would date anything but Black. If you say this in public and elaborate on your rationale, which is probably the same as Oleg's black = ugly, you'd be immediately branded as a racist.

To me, sexual preferences are always arbitrary. You cannot have an AA quota for whom you're supposed to date probably. There is probably even no absolute thing such as beautiful or ugly since each individual in the world can have a different set of beauty standards than you.

Interestingly, maybe we should get rid of global beauty pageants altogether. If you're not into, say, African features you probably didn't go for the Nigerian Miss World being better looking than Miss Italy or whatever other country. There is also nothing wrong or necessarily racist about that- just like the individual who would only vote for a Black as always being the most beautiful isn't necessarily racist. How can you get a global representative of beauty when there is no absolute standard of beauty.

Hell, someone found Whoopee Goldberg attractive enough to marry her!!!

I'm not into Rushumba or Vanessa. Carey (isn't she only 1/4 Black) is good looking when dieting and with long straight hair. Halle Berry's good looking IMHO. To me, she'd be a lot better looking if she, like other Black/BI chicks would just get longer hair. Also, give me 15 minutes on the internet, and I'll find 5 Latinas, 5 Indians, 5 White, or 5 Oriental women that better suit my taste that get a lot less media hype partly b/c they're not Black.

Posted by: -R at February 5, 2003 03:58 PM


YAAAMS:
"Yet ask any honest successful African-American in any field, and he or she will tell you that affirmative action quotas don't get you there. Those quotas can be bypassed and filled in any number of ways. Instead, what gets you there is working hard, being the best, and proving yourself over and over again."

This statement is like having your cake and eating it too. If AA didn't get anyone the job then why not just do away with them? Obviously, A gets some people into some jobs, fairly or unfairly. I agree that whether they do well or keep the job is often based mostly on their performance- but AA can still play a role in promotions.

"Here's a personal example, as told to me by a friend who works as an ER doctor. He was in the ER when another doctor (a white) told a white woman in her 60's that she needed an emergency appendectomy. She immediately announced that she wanted my friend to perform the surgery. Startled by this demand, the white doctor asked why. She responded, "He's colored ain't he? He had to get much higher grades to get the same job you have." Point well taken."

If someone is good enough to get through med school and residency in this country, I don't doubt their abilities to handle the average patient. If the author really wanted to avoid this stereotype, he would be in favor of just getting rid of AA altogether.

Posted by: -R at February 5, 2003 04:26 PM


"If someone is good enough to get through med school and residency in this country, I don't doubt their abilities to handle the average patient."

You might be better off doubting.

Posted by: Jon Wilkins at February 5, 2003 05:58 PM


“At this upper end, I'm guessing we'll see an increasing number of black women taking on equally well-educated, non-black partners.”

This is possible, but unlikely. You have to remember that white women outnumber white men on campus in ever increasing numbers also. The educational gap between white men and white women is not as pronounced as the gap between black men and black women, but it is significant. I read that the sex ration between men and women at most universities will be 4:6 sometime in the near future. A well-educated black woman will face increasing competition from the overabundance of similarly situated white women (not to mention Asian women) for white men. Why is Condi Rice single? What about Anita Hill?

I would hazard a guess that the biggest source of white partners for interracially inclined black women is the Armed Services.

“In defense of Oleg, he didn't say this directly in front of anyone in public”

This is a public form, no?

“To me, sexual preferences are always arbitrary.”

Is a sexual preference for intelligence arbitrary?

“Often the dad got mama pregnant and split. I think a lot of these fatherless biracial black girls come to the conclusion, based on their fathers' treatment of the mothers, that black men are unreliable and better avoided.”

There is the other angle. Perhaps these girls ask themselves why their mothers were irresponsible enough to get knocked up in the first place. My personal observation has been that black men pursue biracial girls much more ardently than white men do, generally speaking. I don’t have any hard stats to back this up, but it seems to me that most biracial (black/white) girls end up with black men.

Posted by: RR at February 5, 2003 06:31 PM


"I don’t have any hard stats to back this up, but it seems to me that most biracial (black/white) girls end up with black men."

Well, most of the biracial girls I've observed closely were raised by white stepfathers in largely white environments. I think it depends on how smart she is and how she was raised.

Posted by: duende at February 5, 2003 07:26 PM


***I think we can conclude that the NBA players that married non-blacks are outliers"***

Culturally and socially, black NBA players would generally prefer to marry black women. But in terms of physical appearance, it is likely that the "black" wives look pretty similiar to the non-black wives. Although the website states that the wives are "African-American" it is still possible that most of them are only half, or one-quarter black genetically.

Note that it is possible for both parents of person to identify as being "black" yet have enough "white ancestry" collectively such that their kids appear only "part black." For example, Beyonce Knowles of Destiny's Child has two "black" parents, but her mother is very light skinned. Therefore Beyonce is "pure black" culturally, but only "part black" genetically. From what I have gathered, the "black" women who marry NBA players always look only half/one-quarter/part black. In other words, these wives would be similiar to the example of Beyonce-- culturally identifying as "pure black" with two "black" parents of their own, but genetically being substantially non-black.

Therefore any sons of NBA players would be genetically closer to being non-black, and these sons, having inherited wealth and some fame from their fathers, would in turn marry ligher skinned women ("black" or non-black), until eventually the descendants of the NBA player have outbred their "blackness" out of existence, and their cash out of the African-American community. The point is: even if a wealthy black man marries a "black" or "African-American" woman, that DOESN'T COUNTER the likelihood that the man's descendants will be less black than himself, nor does it counter the likelihood that in the long run (not necessarily in the man's own lifetime), the man's wealthiest descendants will be non-black. The "black" women who marry wealthy black males may indeed identify as being black culturally and may have two "black" parents, but genetically, they are almost always substantially non-black.

Posted by: WD at February 5, 2003 11:45 PM


I don't like the black chicks but I think that Cuban Mulatto chicks look much better than Halle Berry

Posted by: Juan Ascaño at February 6, 2003 03:51 AM


Walsh comments in the article that "the vast majority of american blacks have white ancestors". How true is that? Does anybody have any guesses?

Posted by: jimbo at February 6, 2003 08:22 AM


See this article on white admixture in blacks. The skinny, blacks are 15-25% white, but 10% of blacks are over 50% white, indicating a bimodal distrubtion....

Posted by: razib at February 6, 2003 03:30 PM


"Well, most of the biracial girls I've observed closely were raised by white stepfathers in largely white environments. I think it depends on how smart she is and how she was raised."

I agree with you. This is precisely my point. White women who have children out of wedlock (we are still talking about illegitimate biracials, right) aren't very bright, generally speaking. Add to this the IQ of the irresponsible black baby daddy, and what you have is a biracial girl who is significantly more likely to marry (assuming she doesn't get knocked up first) a black man than a white man.

I must say that I have yet to meet a white guy who is stepfather to his white wife's half black bastard daughter. It is the rare man who is willing to raise another man's child. The number of men willing to raise children who have been fathered by men of another race must be very small indeed. If I may be so bold, how many biracial girls with white stepfathers do you know?

Now, biracial women who are born within wedlock are a different kettle of fish.

Posted by: at February 6, 2003 06:46 PM


Razib should take a look at Ethiopian and Eritrean women. There are a number of them here in Dallas (refugees, just like the Kurds, Iraqi soldiers, and a slew of others). They are quite attractive. It's the black American women who, for the most part, are unattractive, as their forebears came from West Africa.

BTW, Duende resides in Washington, D.C. She should look into the Wesorts of Southern Maryland. They are an admixture of black, white and American Indian. Many are whiter than Colin Powell.

Posted by: Roger Chaillet at February 6, 2003 06:58 PM


Hello World... interesting discussion going on here... and it helps that we can be anonymous :)

Halle Berry doesn't do anything for me personally, I do not find her attractive at all... however I did recently notice that she has an ugly mother... and I thought that this was great for ugly white women... they should have children by black men... these kids will turn out to be quite appreciated in the black community for their lighter skin, sharper features etc... in fact, ugly white women should simply give up on finding white men... they should simply concentrate on finding the best black men they can get...

to get a little off topic here.. i find that most black men seem to have this image of themselves as being 'hustlers' or 'passion specialists' or 'flava kings'... when they meet girls.. its not enough for them to say hi... no sir, they have to hug the girl and sway about a little.. even if she's squirming underneath... i saw shades of this behavior recently when i was watching puff daddy MCing an awards ceremony... he kept shouting to the crowd "where's the love u guys... show me some love"... it seems black men believe that they are deserving of more expressive love than other people.... i partly blame the media for this, because for a long time now, they've portrayed this image of black men being cool and loving, while white men are portrayed as self hating dorks (who sometimes wish they were black).... so now it seems that some black men have started to believe this shit... that's my theory anyway... i personally don't like the glorification of black / hip hop culture that i see on mainstream media these days... the NYT had an article on 50 Cent's new record which did not mention one negative word about the negativity in the lyrical content of the album... i like hip hop music, but i know enough to separate my own life from the life extolled in some of the music... however, in the university where i teach, i find that many black students seem to have troubling their lives from the hip hop music they love... i find them talking about bitches and hoes... and using the "N" word all the time, like it was going out of style... etc.... i gotta rush to eat some grub... may continue this rant at a later date...

Posted by: holierthanthou at February 7, 2003 02:46 PM


Since when does Black=ugly? There are LOADS of Dark skinned women involved with asian,caucasian men. I mean in Hollywood alone. I think that's a severely outdated look at things, this whole conversation is a bit drenched in personal bias and ancient perception. Are some of you insinuating that there are no "pure black" women who are every bit as attractive as Berry, Williams, or Carey for crying out loud??? What about Iman, Naomi Campbell,Garcelle Beauvais, etc etc etc. if you're using Blacks in the media as your yard stick, please don't use the people you see on Jerry Springer or any of that garbage as a comparison to some of the most beautiful women in entertainment! Most interracial women aren't anywhere near as pretty as Halle berry, most white women aren't as pretty as Halle Berry.

Posted by: Too sexy for my skintone? at February 8, 2003 05:29 PM


Too sexy for my skintone?:
"Since when does Black=ugly?"

My point is simply that there are NO ABSOLUTE STANDARDS OF BEAUTY. That is why you find the defining traits of blacks attractive while others do not. I would argue NO ONE IS RACIST. This is simply a case of people's personal preferences at work. No one, including you, is 'right' or 'wrong'.

"There are LOADS of Dark skinned women involved with asian,caucasian men. I mean in Hollywood alone. "

I don't know where you are getting your facts. According to statistics, there are relatively fewer white male- black female relationships than black male- white female ones and practically no asian male- black female relationships:

http://www.isteve.com/IsLoveColorblind.htm

"I think that's a severely outdated look at things, this whole conversation is a bit drenched in personal bias and ancient perception. Are some of you insinuating that there are no "pure black" women who are every bit as attractive as Berry, Williams, or Carey for crying out loud??? What about Iman, Naomi Campbell,Garcelle Beauvais, etc etc etc."

I would absolutely agree that all of these posts are drenched in our own personal opinions- that is why I am saying there are NO ABSOLUTE STANDARDS OF BEAUTY. If someone genuinely is not attracted as much to Iman, Naomi Campbell or Garcelle Beauvais then what are we supposed to do about it? That is simply their personal opinion. You, of course, have a different one. All this shows me is BEAUTY IS RELATIVE and in the eye of the beholder.

"if you're using Blacks in the media as your yard stick, please don't use the people you see on Jerry Springer or any of that garbage as a comparison to some of the most beautiful women in entertainment! Most interracial women aren't anywhere near as pretty as Halle berry, most white women aren't as pretty as Halle Berry."

OK, when you understand how someone could find the avg white woman prettier than Halle Berry, then you will understand why beauty is relative, after all.

P.S. Don't misunderstand me. I would probably agree with you that the avg white woman is not as pretty as Halle Berry.

Posted by: -R at February 8, 2003 06:36 PM


Of course I know that beauty is relative, but I say that the average white woman isn't as attarctive as Halle baerry because Hally walks around in dresses that costs thousands of dollars, with expensive make up jobs, top of the line hairstylist, lighting that's absolutely perfect for her, etc et cetc. She's considered one of the m,ost if not THE most beautiful woman in Hollywood. You don't compare normal women who only have a few minutes for make up, no expensive stylist, their only lighting is the Sun, etc etc to that. No way. That's not a fair comparison at all.

I never said that there were more whit male/black female relationships than black male/white male relationships. I'm saying that it isn't rare. I'm black, my girlfriend of 2 years is Japanese. My mom has dated more than a couple of white men, etc etc, personal experiences for the most part. I'm from Virginia btw.

I think all races have thier absolutely beauties and their more unattractive members, but to say that "Black=Ugly" and that "Mixed black is the exception" is in my opinion want of good sense. Seeing someone(well a race) as "Ugly" and simply not being "attracted" to them are two different things. Then to try and classify that as general perception, that's just wrong. Plain wrong.

Posted by: Too sexy for my SKintone? at February 8, 2003 06:48 PM


That link you gave me is to "statistics" (pretty useless anyway) that are over ten years old.

Posted by: Too sexy for my SKintone? at February 8, 2003 06:50 PM


ok, from what i've seen:

there are some men that find black (african) women very attractive.

BUT, there are MANY men of liberal inclinations who have told me PRIVATELY that they don't find such women AS ATTRACTIVE *PHYSICALLY* as they do non-black women (often men that have dated interracial, not just white racialists or something). within the black community, there is a tendency to prefer "good hair" "good skin" etc. ("high yalla").

yes, there are plenty of cases that go against the generalization. but i don't think it is controversial to say that this is not a society that values black african *female* beauty-many beautiful "black women" have very caucasian fatures and lighter coloration (lena horne, vanessa williams, berry herself)-but the rule of hypodescent allows them to be classified as black. the reasons might be cultural brainwashing, it might be genetic, it might be random, it might be corporate advertising-i don't know. but i think the fact is hard to dispute, there are two standards of beauty in america: the buxom blonde at one pole, and the only rival is the petite "exotic" asian-everyone else is an also ran (including brunette white women)-with dark-skinned black women being at the bottom of the desire totem pole.

it might not be fair, it might not be nice, but i think that is how things are.

Posted by: razib at February 8, 2003 06:56 PM


I guess that's why Hollywood consistently employs more dark skin actresses than light( high yellow) ones? The same with music, and fashion modeling.

yeah... right. Halle Berry isn't so light ya know.

Posted by: Too sexy for my skintone? at February 8, 2003 07:13 PM


Too sexy for my SKintone?:
"Of course I know that beauty is relative, but I say that the average white woman isn't as attarctive as Halle baerry because Hally walks around in dresses that costs thousands of dollars, with expensive make up jobs, top of the line hairstylist, lighting that's absolutely perfect for her, etc et cetc. She's considered one of the m,ost if not THE most beautiful woman in Hollywood. You don't compare normal women who only have a few minutes for make up, no expensive stylist, their only lighting is the Sun, etc etc to that. No way. That's not a fair comparison at all."

Well, like I said, while I would probably agree with you that Halle's better looking than the avg white woman, I respect the fact that there are those who genuinely don't feel that way. For example, maybe there is some kid growing up in Iceland who has only known white women and bases his standards of beauty on them. Hypothetically, I could see how he would find the avg white woman more attractive than Halle Berry.

Before you attack this as an extreme example, my point is simply that this mentality can exist (and I suspect it can exist even in this country)without the person being racist.

"I never said that there were more whit male/black female relationships than black male/white male relationships. I'm saying that it isn't rare. I'm black, my girlfriend of 2 years is Japanese. My mom has dated more than a couple of white men, etc etc, personal experiences for the most part. I'm from Virginia btw."

There's nothing here I take issue with.

"I think all races have thier absolutely beauties and their more unattractive members, but to say that "Black=Ugly" and that "Mixed black is the exception" is in my opinion want of good sense. Seeing someone(well a race) as "Ugly" and simply not being "attracted" to them are two different things. Then to try and classify that as general perception, that's just wrong. Plain wrong."

OK, what if you don't find light skin, straight hair, light eyes attractive. You probably won't find N. European Whites attractive since they generally have all of those features. OBVIOUSLY, there is probably at least one N. European out there who would fit your bill, but generally speaking they are not attractive to you. "Ugly" is a loaded term, unfortunately. But, whether you call the group you don't find attractive 'less attractive' or 'ugly' it means the same thing.

Some people really have broad based biases against specific features found in many of a certain race. I suspect you're more open to appearance differences, in general. I would suggest characterizing anyone's preferences as 'right' or 'wrong' is inappropriate, and one of the many reasons no one wants to engage in a 'real' dialogue on race in this country.

"That link you gave me is to "statistics" (pretty useless anyway) that are over ten years old."

I don't feel like doing much work to find a better set of statistics. Besides, you didn't offer any of your own. I am open to differing facts if you showed them to me.

Posted by: -R at February 8, 2003 07:16 PM


uh-i don't know, if you assert that there is a preference for dark over light among black women in modelling & entertainment, fine. i don't see it.

does anyone have a list of the top black *female* actresses in terms of cash? i'd be curious as to see whether they fit the whoopy goldberg model (comedian) vs. the halle berry model (sexy leading label) and their physiognamy. the preference for women to be light-skinned is pretty cross-cultural btw-the tanning fad is one of the great exceptions.

i'm actually curious about this topic though-i assumed that this is an undisputable fact (especially after reading some of laurence otis graham and randall kennedy's books where the preference for "yellow women" is pretty explicitly laid out in the black community and the contempt for "skillet blondes" that i've seen in my few black aquaintances [perhaps it says something about me?]). anyone want to survey female hip-hop groups?

Posted by: razib at February 8, 2003 08:24 PM


2 serious errors in toosexyformyskintone's first post... Naomi Campbell is not pure black, she had a white mother... and Halle Berry is inter-racial.. she too had a white mother...

Jeez man, where do you get your info from??

Posted by: holierthanthou at February 9, 2003 05:12 PM


My personal observation has been that black men pursue biracial girls much more ardently than white men do, generally speaking. I don’t have any hard stats to back this up, but it seems to me that most biracial (black/white) girls end up with black men.

Posted by: ogunsiron at February 9, 2003 07:30 PM


ok, from what i've seen:

there are some men that find black (african) women very attractive.

Posted by: ogunsiron at February 9, 2003 07:58 PM


I CAN LOOK IN PLAYBOY AND FIND THOUSANDS OF WHITE WOMEN THAT ARE MORE ATTRACTIVE THAN HALLIE BERRIE AND vANESSA wILLIAMS. hOW ABOUT THAT?

Posted by: dYME at June 8, 2003 01:18 PM


I CAN LOOK IN PLAYBOY AND FIND THOUSANDS OF WHITE WOMEN THAT ARE MORE ATTRACTIVE THAN HALLIE BERRIE AND vANESSA wILLIAMS. hOW ABOUT THAT?

Posted by: dYME at June 8, 2003 01:18 PM


have any of you ever looked in magazines like xxl or the source or king magazine etc.... they are filled with pages of very attractive black women probably more attractive than anyone you have mentioned playboy or not(they don't all look the same blonde hair caked on makeup)the women in these books don't need all of that. I THINK ATTRACTIVE WOMEN COME IN EVERY COLOR. unfortunetly we don't get to see all of them and so people make jugements by what they see on SOME t.v shows and around them. IT'S VERY SAD. one last thing and i am gone. as long as the person you are with treats you and people around you well WHO CARES WHAT COLOR THEY ARE

Posted by: openmnd at August 7, 2003 02:23 AM


You have obviously not seen Naomi Campbell's Mom, the woman is black!

Posted by: unknown at September 11, 2003 10:22 PM


I have been reading this post, and frankly I am appalled at the most of the views I am reading. Being black it friegtens me to see all these elitest views. I am sure most things are only said becasue this site is anonymous. That is the scariest thought of all becasue some of you probably work with black people and pretent to treat them as an equal.

I will give you the true reasons that blacks date and marry outside of there race. There are three: American history and pop culture; the inability of blacks to be sen as more than a homognous people; Lack of supply in the black community.

Through out alot of mordern history black has indeed equaled ugly. For generations people have been conditioned to beleive that the typical blond hair blue eyes playboy bunny is the standard of beauty. That hasn't changed. If you look at MTV or the movies there are absolutley no black women seen as sex symbols. I don't mean Halle Berry and the like that use their so-called blackness to further thier careers. I will give you an example. Black women have always been vouluptous. For years this was seen as fat and unsexy until J-Lo. Now evey pale face this side of the Atlantic ocean tries to get a juicy ass. In America it ain't right until its white. Even if you look at commericals you see a very dark skinned man with his light wife and kids. Until the people that control pop culture change this standard, black women will always seem like a settlement choice to some men.

Also for years a black man could be killed for lusted after a white women. Today with the "racial tolerance" movement a black person can pretty much freely date any white person that gives him a chance. So, for many black men its like being a kid and your mom telling you "no you can't have candy," when you turn 18 you sometimes eat candy to spite the dominering rule that once told you you can't have it. To many men, (not just black look at asian and indian men also) white women are that toy that they could not have for years, and now no one is gonna stop them from having it. They believe that blond women is the hammer that will once and for all break that glass ceiling.

If I go with a white guy to a mall with and we are dressed in Timberland boots and long sweats I am black, he is a kid just trying to find him self. If we put on a suit he is a "business man" I am still just black. The point I am trying to make is that no matter what I do people are going to see a black guy and see only the negative the word black means in America (Look at the things that proffesor said in previous post he just said blacks). Succesful black men see this i.e. Kobe, Karl Malone. They don't see themselves being a part of this homogenous black culture, but rather a person who happens to be black. Therefore when they see a black women (espically dark ones) they themselves see all the bad things of this homogenous "black" culture and they don't won't not part of it. Many black men try and seperate from that.

Lastly, most black people are concentrated in the inner cities across the country. When blacks leave the inner city there just isn't alot of blacks were they go(Imagine being black and working for a company in Minnesota. Not many blacks there). You date whats there. When a white kid grows up in a black neigborhood he/she dates black people.

This of course is my opinion as a black men who has friends who are black and date non-black women exclusivley. I could get even more indepth, but I don't you would read it. To meet it is said women black people date exclusivley non-black people because they must feel blacks are less than everyone else including themselves. I myself do not like white women. I am not attracted to them at all. Some are attracted to me (why I don't know) but its just not my thing. Unfortunatly ther are not many like me and I fear blacks who have "made it" will continue to get lighter and lighter until there will only be the black people you see on cops and rap videos. Hopefully not in my lifetime.

Posted by: Stork_9 at September 26, 2003 03:38 PM


I'am a Black women.I have seen alot of ignorant remarks on this Web page called,Gene Expression about my people I take offense to it and by the same token I think that it is funny that everyone
studying black people trying to figure us out.Hating on us and saying negative things about us.
I know that their is some very special about us,and we can endure anything and have been through everything and still came out even stronger.First of all let me educate people a little on the"Black Race" and our Genetics.First of all were not Black at all were really the "People of Color".I you have ever walked through a Black Neiborhood you will see "so called" black people from one end of the color spectrum to another from very white looking skin to ,"High Yella" as we African Americans say to a Red bone,Brown skin to,Dark Brown,to Moca skin, to
Carmel skin to Jet Black skin.Our race and our people are like a colorful rainbow.We have different hair textures from a woolly,to course hair,from curley to fine hair and we also have people with hair like white people.My own physical description is i am 5"3 I am a light skinned black person with reddish-brown hair with brown eyes.And i wanted to point out that "just because your skin is light does not always mean that you are mixed."My mother is a "high yellow"
black women and my father is a dark brown skinned black man and i came out more of my mother's complexion.We have different eye colors.I have a little cousin on my mother's side with two black parents and he's a boy he has almost white skin and his eye's are "Blue" as blue as the ocean.The boy's mother is my first cousin and her eyes are light-green.My Mother's mom my (Grandmother)was a tall stong spirited Black women she was dark-skinned in complexion and her husband was a short "High Yella" black man.Their children came out to be a combination between light skinned to dark skinned and in between.Majority of the girls came our Light accept for two,and all the boys are tall and dark skinned like my Grandmother.Their were 10 girls and 5 boys.The funny thing is that my moms baby sisters are twins and they are both born on the same day and they are both are as differnt as night and day.One is tall and high yellow with red hair and the other is short and dark-skinned with long black wavey and curley hair much like a latino person.They are all black and they are all proud.I
get tired of people saying "oh,your skin is light so you must be mixed,or you must have some one white in your family.And African's directly from Africa are the same way they are very colorful complexion wise too.My neighbor across the hall from me are from Ethiopia and they are good friends of mine the male has short very curley hair and his wife has long black curley hair and wavey,her hair is all the way down to her butt.I sick of the lies that "Black=Ugly rule and Asian's will date anything but black I grew up in Hawaii and alot of my friends were mixed with Asian and Black.Maybe some Asian people don't like black people but not all.Black men do have alot of love and respect for black women even if they do marry outside of their race.Alot of Brother's who date and marry women outside of their race still come to black women and lean on them for emotional,mental and spiritual support,because Black men know that Black women are strong we are beautiful and very powerful.Black women are the backbone of their community,with the grace of God we lifted our people up when everyone else was trying to tear us down.Vanessa Williams is Black with two Light-skinned parents or High yellow parents and one of her parent have light green eyes.I have seen them for myself.They look like some people from my family.Alot of Blacks would call it an insult if you would say they are mixed.Black men are well known for their anatomy because a good majority of them are well endowed 85% and the other 15% are average.That's why women of other races like to get with them,it's either that or because they have money.If Jason Kidd,Kobe Bryant,Tim Duncan,Karl Malone or David Robinson come into an all black neighborhood with a non-black wife they will be talked about badly,rediculed and Ostracized because i have seen that happen before.I have heard black people say,"Who does he think he is being disrespectful bringing that white women around here,he must have lost his mind"and black people know that i'am telling the truth.I hope one day that people can come to an understaning and stop being prejudice and racist against people because of the color of their skin.And I want all Blacks to know that no matter how many evil-hateful things that are said about us,i want my people to know that "BLACK IS BEAUTIFUL!

Posted by: Jasmine at October 7, 2003 03:27 AM


WELL I CAN'T BELIEVE THE IGNORANCE THAT HAS CROSS MY EYES,this must be white owned assimilation site, or a Black self-hate site. First of all for you to use NBA players as shining examples of Negro's sellouts is not surprising, but to read ignorant staments such as " Black is ugly " or that most "BLACK MEN want females who appear white" is absurd. I for one have dark melanin skin, I'm 6'5, 210lb and have the option of dating women from many diffrent "races". Yet I would never ever marry or have children with a non-African person. The reason being that I love myself to much to have my features distorted are watered down. Black men and women who do marry or date outside the African family suffer low self-esteem. I must add that Black scientist have found that Black males and females dating or married to white females/ males, have the greatest fear of white people. Getting with a white person makes them feel like white people know that they are passive and definitely no threat to the white "race". Also UPDATE humanity orgins sprung from AFRICA so perhaps a few of you should pick up a book on genitics, so as to be clear that Africans are the original. And the original can never be debased. HOTEP

Posted by: Asar Tar at October 11, 2003 07:43 PM