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August 25, 2003

IMMIGRATION INFO

As I see that UK immigration policy is discussed below, here is a useful source of information: Migration Watch is an independent think tank run by a former diplomat and a professor of demography at Oxford. It frequently criticises Government policy and statistics, which means the Government smears it as 'right wing, racist, blah blah blah...', but the Goverment usually has to admit in the end that MW's figures are right. Although naturally MW is mainly concerned with the UK, some of the issues and arguments are relevant elsewhere.

Posted by David B at 03:57 AM




David,

Nothing on earth is ever going to happen to immigration policy until this country is so wretched that no one wants to come here in the first place.

Posted by: Peter Phillips at August 25, 2003 05:44 AM


Peter,

I think you're taking a rather defeatist view of the matter. I would say that conservatives have to be prepared to go down fighting, not for the least reason that I don't want anyone to be able to say I stood by idly and let my culture be destroyed.

Posted by: John Purdy at August 25, 2003 09:05 AM


John,


Ive pointed out before that 80 percent of the electorate in this country wants an end to this aylum nonsense. None of it has translated into policy.

I cant see how it *is* going to translate into concrete action anytime soon. And the more time we lose, the worse it gets.

Posted by: Peter Phillips at August 25, 2003 09:52 AM


Peter:
"Ive pointed out before that 80 percent of the electorate in this country wants an end to this aylum nonsense. None of it has translated into policy.

I cant see how it is going to translate into concrete action anytime soon. And the more time we lose, the worse it gets. "

Actually, I agree with Peter with one caveat. Although '80%' of the population may want something like this, they clearly don't PRIORITIZE it in any meaningful way to make their voices heard. In other words, the British populace, like the American populace, will vote for politicians who argue for their interests with regards to economics, defense, education and other basics despite the fact that these same politicians may be for the status quo with regard to immigration. The populace is not blameless, Peter. When D.C. or London 'burns', we can thank them for their foolishness as much as the politicians who 'serve' them. Democracy in the Western world is very responsive to issues people really care about.

Moreover, I am actually a little bit more hopeful than Peter. Maybe if a politician can successfully link immigration with the 'basic' issues, we'll see more progressive immigration reform. I doubt it b/c I think the average Britain (like the average American) still won't get it. However, ultimately, I think genetic engineering will still 'save' us all from ouselves regardless of what we do (or don't do).

That will be a LONG day away though- and it still won't wipe out all the evils of this world.

Posted by: R at August 26, 2003 01:29 AM


Peter,

"Ive pointed out before that 80 percent of the electorate in this country wants an end to this aylum nonsense"

This is a broader issue than just immigration: after all, a country's immigration policy is a part of its general foreign policy

Living here, I've noticed that the British attitude towards the EU is similarly complex

Many English people complain about "Europe", yet see nothing wrong in buying German cars, Dutch Hi-Fi equipment, French food, Italian clothes...

The result of all this is that the British economy is completely dependent on trade with people the British supposedly dislike, fear and distrust

This behaviour makes no logical sense

Posted by: DefaultUser at August 26, 2003 02:31 AM


I like Brie and Camembert, but I don't want the French running my country's affairs.

I don't see any inconsistency in this.

Or am I just a cheese-eating surrender monkey?

Posted by: David B at August 26, 2003 03:14 AM


I brought trade into a discussion about immigration because the two issues involve many similar questions and emotions

If you trade freely with a particular country, you give that country influence over your internal economic affairs

Similarly, if you allow in immigrants from a country, you import that country's cultural values, civil disputes, religious controversies etc

Do you remember Black Wednesday, almost exactly 10 years ago?

The Germans, in order to pay for Reunification ramped up their interest and tax rates - and Britain, because of its heavy trade with Germany, was *forced* to do likewise

I was disappointed with the response from British politicians at the time: instead of calmly explaining to the voters what had happened, and *why* ("you're buying too much German stuff!"), they just played politics with the situation by blaming the crisis on each other...

I see a similar situation developing with regard to immigration

"what if they stop buying our stuff?" is the parallel question to "what if the immigrants riot and plant bombs?"

The British people are either in denial about what's happening, or else they're being lied to by their politicians

I suspect the latter


Posted by: DefaultUser at August 26, 2003 07:31 AM


"The populace is not blameless, Peter. When D.C. or London 'burns', we can thank them for their foolishness as much as the politicians who 'serve' them. Democracy in the Western world is very responsive to issues people really care about."


"The British people are either in denial about what's happening, or else they're being lied to by their politicians"

Yup. It has to do with the conditions of man - and in this case the condition is what Nietzsche described as the society of the "Last Man". The Last Man is what makes up the majority of the West today and thats at the root of it.

Posted by: Peter Phillips at August 26, 2003 03:26 PM