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	<title>Comments on: SCOTS WHA HAE&#8230;</title>
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	<description>Genetics</description>
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		<title>By: PovertyBeckons</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39926</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PovertyBeckons]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;David B, thanks for the info - I&#039;ve ordered the Davis book&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David B, thanks for the info &#8211; I&#8217;ve ordered the Davis book</p>
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		<title>By: David B</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39925</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39925</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m not denying the role of the Normans, but I think PovertyBeckons may be reading back the Anglo-Scottish hostility of the 14th and 15th centuries into the C12 and C13 (which is the crucial period for the linguistic shift).  Barrow&#039;s book shows that there was a lot of piecemeal migration from England to Scotland in these two centuries, and they weren&#039;t all Norman barons by any means.&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not denying the role of the Normans, but I think PovertyBeckons may be reading back the Anglo-Scottish hostility of the 14th and 15th centuries into the C12 and C13 (which is the crucial period for the linguistic shift).  Barrow&#8217;s book shows that there was a lot of piecemeal migration from England to Scotland in these two centuries, and they weren&#8217;t all Norman barons by any means.</p>
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		<title>By: PovertyBeckons</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39924</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PovertyBeckons]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39924</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;&quot;it may be difficult to face the possibility that immigration from England was a major factor in building the &#039;nation&#039;.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I haven&#039;t read Davies, so I&#039;m treading on thin ice here, but I think it unlikely that any Scottish government would have encouraged large-scale English immigration into Scotland - even of refugees or skilled farmers&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The Normans seem a likelier vector for the introduction of English to Scotland, since they were few in number, skilled fighters, and hated by the northern English - a combination that would have made them welcome in Scotland&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;A Scottish/Norman alliance with English as &quot;lingua franca&quot; would have been very likely in these circumstances&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;it may be difficult to face the possibility that immigration from England was a major factor in building the &#8216;nation&#8217;.&#8221;</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read Davies, so I&#8217;m treading on thin ice here, but I think it unlikely that any Scottish government would have encouraged large-scale English immigration into Scotland &#8211; even of refugees or skilled farmers</p>
<p>The Normans seem a likelier vector for the introduction of English to Scotland, since they were few in number, skilled fighters, and hated by the northern English &#8211; a combination that would have made them welcome in Scotland</p>
<p>A Scottish/Norman alliance with English as &#8220;lingua franca&#8221; would have been very likely in these circumstances</p>
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		<title>By: David B</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39923</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;Jeeze, when I logged on and saw there were about 20 comments I thought I had succeeded in REALLY winding up the Scots.  But then I find most of the comments are about the frigging Franks!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But Jim, thanks for the reference to Davies - I will look it up some time.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Agreed, the Reformation helped consolidate the use of Old Scots, but according to what I have read, OLd Scots was already virtually universal in the Lowlands before the Reformation.  Gaelic stayed dominant in the Highlands until at least the C18.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I suspect that Scottish historians feel a certain embarrassment about the subject.  Scottish national identity has been constructed, ever since the 14th century, largely in terms of opposition to England, so it may be difficult to face the possibility that immigration from England was a major factor in building the &#039;nation&#039;. &lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeeze, when I logged on and saw there were about 20 comments I thought I had succeeded in REALLY winding up the Scots.  But then I find most of the comments are about the frigging Franks!</p>
<p>But Jim, thanks for the reference to Davies &#8211; I will look it up some time.</p>
<p>Agreed, the Reformation helped consolidate the use of Old Scots, but according to what I have read, OLd Scots was already virtually universal in the Lowlands before the Reformation.  Gaelic stayed dominant in the Highlands until at least the C18.</p>
<p>I suspect that Scottish historians feel a certain embarrassment about the subject.  Scottish national identity has been constructed, ever since the 14th century, largely in terms of opposition to England, so it may be difficult to face the possibility that immigration from England was a major factor in building the &#8216;nation&#8217;. </p>
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		<title>By: Jim Bennett</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39922</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Bennett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;Going back to Scotland for a moment, another useful source on the English/Scots/Gaelic question is R.R. Davies&#039; &quot;The First English Empire: Power and Identities in the British Isles 1093-1343&quot; .  His answer to the question also involves English emigration to Scotland during that period, but he stresses the agricultural-technology side of the issue rather than the military.  The English had mastered a more productive set of agricultural technologies by that time, and Scottish kings and nobles were happy to encourage its diffusion through emigration. It&#039;s also useful to see the issue in the context of the similar emigration of English agriculturalists into Wales and Ireland in the same period, which Davies covers. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This doesn&#039;t invalidate the military technology argument; I would imagine they are complementary.  Medieval military technology required a lot of agricultural productivity to support it, after all.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Finally, it&#039;s hard to talk about the triumph of modern English over old Scots without mentioning the role of the Reformation and the Church of Scotland&#039;s decision to adopt a standard English Bible rather than commissioning a Scots translation.  I suspect that was perhaps the deciding factor in the end.&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going back to Scotland for a moment, another useful source on the English/Scots/Gaelic question is R.R. Davies&#8217; &#8220;The First English Empire: Power and Identities in the British Isles 1093-1343&#8243; .  His answer to the question also involves English emigration to Scotland during that period, but he stresses the agricultural-technology side of the issue rather than the military.  The English had mastered a more productive set of agricultural technologies by that time, and Scottish kings and nobles were happy to encourage its diffusion through emigration. It&#8217;s also useful to see the issue in the context of the similar emigration of English agriculturalists into Wales and Ireland in the same period, which Davies covers. </p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t invalidate the military technology argument; I would imagine they are complementary.  Medieval military technology required a lot of agricultural productivity to support it, after all.</p>
<p>Finally, it&#8217;s hard to talk about the triumph of modern English over old Scots without mentioning the role of the Reformation and the Church of Scotland&#8217;s decision to adopt a standard English Bible rather than commissioning a Scots translation.  I suspect that was perhaps the deciding factor in the end.</p>
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		<title>By: PovertyBeckons</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39921</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PovertyBeckons]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39921</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;i.e. in 18th C. Germany, -&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;French was the language of government and diplomacy, &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;English of trade and commerce, &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Italian of art, music and literature,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Latin of the church,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;While German was the language of the peasantry and soldiery&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i.e. in 18th C. Germany, -</p>
<p>French was the language of government and diplomacy, </p>
<p>English of trade and commerce, </p>
<p>Italian of art, music and literature,</p>
<p>Latin of the church,</p>
<p>While German was the language of the peasantry and soldiery</p>
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		<title>By: PovertyBeckons</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39920</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PovertyBeckons]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m reminded of Frederick the Great&#039;s statement that he spoke &quot;French to my ambassadors, English to my accountant, Italian to my mistress, Latin to my God and German to my horse&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m reminded of Frederick the Great&#8217;s statement that he spoke &#8220;French to my ambassadors, English to my accountant, Italian to my mistress, Latin to my God and German to my horse&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Zizka</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39919</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zizka]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39919</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;Frankish was still a living language in Charlemagne&#039;s time.  However, it left no written records.  My guess would be that it was spoken by low-ranking professional military in partially-segregated units, ignorant country squires, etc. They were &quot;elite&quot; only in not being peasants. My guess, again, is that political leaders knew some Frankish in order to deal with the military.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m working on the idea that the frankish-military / romance-commoner / latin-priesthood three way split continued throughout European history, and that when the (still-military) aristocracy became educated in the early modern age it represented, among other things, the rise of the military/secular principle above the old priestly principle.  Most of the early modern writers (Rabelais, Montaigne, Cervantes) had a lot to say about military strategy and discipline (and many were veterans), and political absolutism seens to have been preceded by Maurice of Nassau&#039;s military rationalization (later on, Gustavus Adolphus). &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The secular, military aristocracy in medieval Christianity was really borderline Christian.  The idea was that they would continue to sin but be forgiven because they gave support to the churchmen who were the only real Christians.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The word gentil/gentle/gentile means either &quot;noble&quot; or &quot;heathen&quot; (but NOT &quot;gentle&quot; in our sense). Don Quixote: &quot;morir como gentil, y no christiano&quot;: &quot;to die as a heathen, and not a Christian&quot; -- i.e. to die unconfessed.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In Shapin&#039;s &quot;Social History of Truth&quot; early science is shown to have grounded itself on aristocratic codes of truth-telling which are ultimately military in origin -- &quot;my word is my bond&quot;, etc.&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankish was still a living language in Charlemagne&#8217;s time.  However, it left no written records.  My guess would be that it was spoken by low-ranking professional military in partially-segregated units, ignorant country squires, etc. They were &#8220;elite&#8221; only in not being peasants. My guess, again, is that political leaders knew some Frankish in order to deal with the military.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m working on the idea that the frankish-military / romance-commoner / latin-priesthood three way split continued throughout European history, and that when the (still-military) aristocracy became educated in the early modern age it represented, among other things, the rise of the military/secular principle above the old priestly principle.  Most of the early modern writers (Rabelais, Montaigne, Cervantes) had a lot to say about military strategy and discipline (and many were veterans), and political absolutism seens to have been preceded by Maurice of Nassau&#8217;s military rationalization (later on, Gustavus Adolphus). </p>
<p>The secular, military aristocracy in medieval Christianity was really borderline Christian.  The idea was that they would continue to sin but be forgiven because they gave support to the churchmen who were the only real Christians.  </p>
<p>The word gentil/gentle/gentile means either &#8220;noble&#8221; or &#8220;heathen&#8221; (but NOT &#8220;gentle&#8221; in our sense). Don Quixote: &#8220;morir como gentil, y no christiano&#8221;: &#8220;to die as a heathen, and not a Christian&#8221; &#8212; i.e. to die unconfessed.</p>
<p>In Shapin&#8217;s &#8220;Social History of Truth&#8221; early science is shown to have grounded itself on aristocratic codes of truth-telling which are ultimately military in origin &#8212; &#8220;my word is my bond&#8221;, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Manifold</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39918</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jay Manifold]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39918</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;FWIW, I recently read (don&#039;t have the source handy) that in none of the barbarian invasions of W Europe were the invaders ever more than 5% of the population, the sole and drastic exception being of course the Angle/Saxon/Jute invasion of England.  I note that the use of French was declining rapidly among the upper classes in England 150 years after the Norman Conquest, and the French component of the population reached 20% by the end of William I&#039;s reign.  Assuming similar cultural and linguistic processes, it would surprise me if the Hammer, living over 200 years after a conquest in which there were far fewer conquerors, spoke German at all.&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, I recently read (don&#8217;t have the source handy) that in none of the barbarian invasions of W Europe were the invaders ever more than 5% of the population, the sole and drastic exception being of course the Angle/Saxon/Jute invasion of England.  I note that the use of French was declining rapidly among the upper classes in England 150 years after the Norman Conquest, and the French component of the population reached 20% by the end of William I&#8217;s reign.  Assuming similar cultural and linguistic processes, it would surprise me if the Hammer, living over 200 years after a conquest in which there were far fewer conquerors, spoke German at all.</p>
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		<title>By: PovertyBeckons</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39917</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PovertyBeckons]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39917</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;&quot;my general question was this: we get the impression that charles the great was more of a &quot;frenchmen&quot; than a frank (that&#039;s my impression). the origin&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We&#039;re forgetting the enormous prestige of the Roman Empire, even as it collapsed&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;These illiterate German chieftans were desperate to be seen as the heirs of Rome, not as its destroyers. So we can expect that they would have deliberately favored latin/gallic cultural forms over those of their ancestors&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Intermarriage with old noble Roman families was also an objective: very soon these &quot;Franks&quot; were calling themselves &quot;Romans&quot; and claiming descent from Alexander, Caesar and Augustus...&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;my general question was this: we get the impression that charles the great was more of a &#8220;frenchmen&#8221; than a frank (that&#8217;s my impression). the origin&#8221;</p>
<p>We&#8217;re forgetting the enormous prestige of the Roman Empire, even as it collapsed</p>
<p>These illiterate German chieftans were desperate to be seen as the heirs of Rome, not as its destroyers. So we can expect that they would have deliberately favored latin/gallic cultural forms over those of their ancestors</p>
<p>Intermarriage with old noble Roman families was also an objective: very soon these &#8220;Franks&#8221; were calling themselves &#8220;Romans&#8221; and claiming descent from Alexander, Caesar and Augustus&#8230;</p>
<p></p>
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		<title>By: brawn</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39916</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brawn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 00:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39916</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;Northern Italy&#039;s lombard dialects carry the ö and the ü sounds: i do not think they to be of Longobard influence (they are present in Lombardy and Piedmont)but they should derive from the Gauls who settled in Italy in the third and second century, or by already existing celtic populations (e.g. the Camunians who created prehistorical engravings were Celts).&lt;br /&gt;
All the northern Italian towns in the Po walley have a gallic pre-roman name, with few exceptions.&lt;br /&gt;
Mine for example is Brixia, a gallic divinity.&lt;br /&gt;
Bric meant mount, if you take away the wovels you see he similarity to berg.&lt;br /&gt;
And Bergamo comes from the mountain god Bergimus ..&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt; So I think the French gauls could have had such sounds themselves far before the  Franks came.&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Northern Italy&#8217;s lombard dialects carry the ö and the ü sounds: i do not think they to be of Longobard influence (they are present in Lombardy and Piedmont)but they should derive from the Gauls who settled in Italy in the third and second century, or by already existing celtic populations (e.g. the Camunians who created prehistorical engravings were Celts).<br />
All the northern Italian towns in the Po walley have a gallic pre-roman name, with few exceptions.<br />
Mine for example is Brixia, a gallic divinity.<br />
Bric meant mount, if you take away the wovels you see he similarity to berg.<br />
And Bergamo comes from the mountain god Bergimus ..</p>
<p> So I think the French gauls could have had such sounds themselves far before the  Franks came.</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39915</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[razib]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39915</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;my general question was this: we get the impression that charles the great was more of a &quot;frenchmen&quot; than a frank (that&#039;s my impression).  the origin of the pepinids is among the franks on the east side of the Rhine-the non-latin influenced ones.  so, was charles martel more a german noble or a french one, or in between?  the book above notes that the early to mid pepinid period was characterized by a decline in the influence of western frankish notables-did that mean a decline in the influence of latin culture?  &lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>my general question was this: we get the impression that charles the great was more of a &#8220;frenchmen&#8221; than a frank (that&#8217;s my impression).  the origin of the pepinids is among the franks on the east side of the Rhine-the non-latin influenced ones.  so, was charles martel more a german noble or a french one, or in between?  the book above notes that the early to mid pepinid period was characterized by a decline in the influence of western frankish notables-did that mean a decline in the influence of latin culture?  </p>
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		<title>By: Zizka</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39914</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zizka]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39914</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;Gregory of Tours wrote before 600 AD. Clovis (d 511?) was already Christian. My guess is that C. Martel (d. 744) was bilingual like his grandson Charlemagne. &lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gregory of Tours wrote before 600 AD. Clovis (d 511?) was already Christian. My guess is that C. Martel (d. 744) was bilingual like his grandson Charlemagne. </p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39913</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[razib]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;the book notes that &quot;germanic&quot; fashions came into vogue during the rise of the &lt;b&gt;early&lt;/b&gt; pepinids among notables southern gaul-traditionally the most &quot;roman&quot; area of frankish rule (the period of the late merovingians was characterized by battles for power between various powerful families, some with bases in latinate areas, some in german, like the pepinids, originally from german speaking areas).&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the book notes that &#8220;germanic&#8221; fashions came into vogue during the rise of the <b>early</b> pepinids among notables southern gaul-traditionally the most &#8220;roman&#8221; area of frankish rule (the period of the late merovingians was characterized by battles for power between various powerful families, some with bases in latinate areas, some in german, like the pepinids, originally from german speaking areas).</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-39912</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-39912</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[

	&lt;p&gt;Perhaps some Franks began to adopt Francien soon after conquering Gaul (see below).  Like you, I&#039;ve never come across a reference to what languages Charles Martel himself spoke.  Might Gregory of Tours shed any light on the subject?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;From http://www.alsintl.com/languages/french1.htm:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;The invasion of Gaul in the 400’s AD by Germanic tribes (including the so-called “Franks”) fleeing nomadic attackers from central Asia resulted in a loss of military control by Rome and led to the establishment in of a new, Frankish ruling class whose mother tongue was, of course, not Latin.  Their adaptation to the speaking of popular Latin by the indigenous population tended to impose, by authoritative example, a pronunciation that retained a marked Germanic flavor – notably in the vowel sounds that can still be heard in the French of the present day (the modern French “u” and “eu”, for instance, remain very close to the modern German “ü” and “ö”– sounds unknown to any other modern language descended from Latin).&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps some Franks began to adopt Francien soon after conquering Gaul (see below).  Like you, I&#8217;ve never come across a reference to what languages Charles Martel himself spoke.  Might Gregory of Tours shed any light on the subject?</p>
<p>From <a href="http://www.alsintl.com/languages/french1.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.alsintl.com/languages/french1.htm</a>:</p>
<p>&#8220;The invasion of Gaul in the 400’s AD by Germanic tribes (including the so-called “Franks”) fleeing nomadic attackers from central Asia resulted in a loss of military control by Rome and led to the establishment in of a new, Frankish ruling class whose mother tongue was, of course, not Latin.  Their adaptation to the speaking of popular Latin by the indigenous population tended to impose, by authoritative example, a pronunciation that retained a marked Germanic flavor – notably in the vowel sounds that can still be heard in the French of the present day (the modern French “u” and “eu”, for instance, remain very close to the modern German “ü” and “ö”– sounds unknown to any other modern language descended from Latin).&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-34207</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[razib]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-34207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[
	
		

	&lt;p&gt;the age of charles martel.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the age of charles martel.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-34206</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-34206</guid>
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	&lt;p&gt;Out of curiosity, what monograph on Charles Martel did you read?&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Out of curiosity, what monograph on Charles Martel did you read?</p>
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		<title>By: razib</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-34205</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[razib]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-34205</guid>
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	&lt;p&gt;yeah, i know about charlemagne-but i read a whole monograph on charles &quot;the hammer&quot; martel-and it never specified whether he was bilingual or only mastered german.  (the hammer&#039;s family came from the more germanized areas).&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah, i know about charlemagne-but i read a whole monograph on charles &#8220;the hammer&#8221; martel-and it never specified whether he was bilingual or only mastered german.  (the hammer&#8217;s family came from the more germanized areas).</p>
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		<title>By: Zizka</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-34204</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zizka]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-34204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[
	
		

	&lt;p&gt;Charlemagne was bilingual (but illiterate) in frankish (germanic) and early french.  Frankish was already losing centrality, though.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Incidentally, the name for the 1200 AD dialect which eventually became &quot;French&quot; is &quot;francien&quot;. It  is distinguished from frankish and from various other important dialects such as picard or norman French.&lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlemagne was bilingual (but illiterate) in frankish (germanic) and early french.  Frankish was already losing centrality, though.</p>
<p>Incidentally, the name for the 1200 AD dialect which eventually became &#8220;French&#8221; is &#8220;francien&#8221;. It  is distinguished from frankish and from various other important dialects such as picard or norman French.</p>
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		<title>By: PovertyBeckons</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2003/10/26/scots-wha-hae/#comment-34203</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PovertyBeckons]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-34203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[
	
		

	&lt;p&gt;&quot;following the Norman Conquest of England in 1066, the Scottish monarchy intermarried with the exiled Anglo-Saxon monarchy&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I remember reading a book on this subject that argued the opposite: that the kings of Scotland welcomed Norman (not Saxon) adventurers from England as immigrants because they brought with them technological and military skills which the Scots of the time didn&#039;t possess: crossbows and siege engines, superior stonemasonry and armour, mastery of heavy cavalry&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Naturally, many native Scottish nobles disliked this policy, and eventually rebelled against their king. He, with the aid of his new Norman subjects, suppressed the dissidents and awarded their lands to the newcomers. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The result of this was a Celtic-Norman aristocracy that was the military equal of that of England, which enabled the Scots (unlike the Welsh and Irish) to resist English expansion over the succeeding centuries. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If by the time that this happened (about 100 years after the Conquest), the Normans were speaking English as their primary language, it would account to a great degree for the early establishment of English in Scotland. &lt;/p&gt;
	]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;following the Norman Conquest of England in 1066, the Scottish monarchy intermarried with the exiled Anglo-Saxon monarchy&#8221;</p>
<p>I remember reading a book on this subject that argued the opposite: that the kings of Scotland welcomed Norman (not Saxon) adventurers from England as immigrants because they brought with them technological and military skills which the Scots of the time didn&#8217;t possess: crossbows and siege engines, superior stonemasonry and armour, mastery of heavy cavalry</p>
<p>Naturally, many native Scottish nobles disliked this policy, and eventually rebelled against their king. He, with the aid of his new Norman subjects, suppressed the dissidents and awarded their lands to the newcomers. </p>
<p>The result of this was a Celtic-Norman aristocracy that was the military equal of that of England, which enabled the Scots (unlike the Welsh and Irish) to resist English expansion over the succeeding centuries. </p>
<p>If by the time that this happened (about 100 years after the Conquest), the Normans were speaking English as their primary language, it would account to a great degree for the early establishment of English in Scotland. </p>
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