Comments on: Nature: Watson “damage[d] science itself”

By: Erin

Erin — Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:09:02 +0000

Would everyone be so up in arms if Watson asserted the Melanin Theory, in which black supremists believe that a greater level of melanin in dark skin “naturally enhances intelligence, emotional sensitivity, and physical prowess.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin_Theory#Melanin_Theory

By: mc

mc — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:18:24 +0000

btw, there is a lot more at stake regarding Watson’s comments, than just hurt feelings and moral indignation. If it is not accepted that some people in certain very large extended families are just not as mentally high-functioning as other very large extended families, then…now where am I … oh yeah ….
it means that the lower functioning members of very large extended families will always be blaming the more successful members of very large extended families and claiming they were screwed in some way. didn’t have enough caviar growing up or something.

That’s the problem. the blame game.

By: mc

mc — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:11:17 +0000

"sure they are. but one life is an unrepresentative anecdote. the ppl who frequent this site probably have unrepresentative anecdotes just as watson might."
true, I like to think mine are special too.
but if they are, they would be represented at the far ends of the bell curve.
Some poor young person gets blown up in a humvee in Iraq. Would have been safer in a tank. This is his story, this is a stat.

"All true histories contain instruction; though, in some, the treasure may be hard to find, and when found, so trivial in quantity that the dry, shrivelled kernel scarcely compensates for the trouble of cracking the nut."
go girl.
The spector of disappointment has shadowed me so persistently, I tossed my nut-cracker long ago.
Nobody could express discouragement better than the Brontes. Anne was a bit self-referential here, self-effacing as she was. Yet an enormous number of trees have been sacrificed in tribute for recording anecdotes of her and her family--they really make a good read after all.
They were also statistics: early death, late or no marriage, early sibling mortality, galluping consumption, 1 in a 100,000 fame and success above the hoard of "female scribblers." S

By: Spike Gomes

Spike Gomes — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:57:38 +0000

razib:

I suppose less “flaws” than shortcomings. I’m pretty certain genetic diseases are going to be cleared up fairly soon, particularly for those who can afford it, but an upcoming world where everyone from Peoria to Lagos emerges from the womb able to cope and contribute to the modern world if they so desired? Not particularly hopeful.

By: wongba

wongba — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:43:50 +0000

benn said: Bongwa

right... anyways.

If you want to argue on anything you have to understand what the other person is trying to say.

u think ppl would be more accepting of it if he made his own race "inferior." blacks and whites may be more accepting of that, but u don't seem to take asians into account. not all asians care to be put on a pedestal by whites as a "superior" race. it makes them a target in an argument that they didn't start and aren't necessarily a party to. as EW said earlier, asians are not having problems. blacks are. if he is concerned about the basis of western policy towards africa, he need not mention asians at all. if his argument is compelling, it should stand on its own without needing to play the "asian card." his comments would seem less inflammatory if he simply left out his personal observations.

.. and you think you got IQ. Sigh.

and i said this when?

By: razib

razib — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:52:48 +0000

It may be my pessimistic nature, but sometimes the whole "soon human genetic flaws can be engineered away" sounds a bit like the Singularity for Bio types.

preimplantation screening and selection abortion can really help a lot of couples engage in eugenic improvement of their lineage soon.

By: Spike Gomes

Spike Gomes — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:28:04 +0000

razib:

Of course by the same cheeky token, the hope in imminent cheap gene therapy will come to float all boats is a bit like saying Jesus is coming soon. I'd laugh at the whole thing, but it seems that religious modes of thinking seem to be in everyone, not that I'm saying anyone here of note really falls into that sort of blithe optimism of cheap therapy right around the corner.

It may be my pessimistic nature, but sometimes the whole "soon human genetic flaws can be engineered away" sounds a bit like the Singularity for Bio types.

By: Benn

Benn — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:47:15 +0000

Bongwa, you just made several assumptions on my post, how you got to those assumptions is beyond my understanding.

If you want to argue on anything you have to understand what the other person is trying to say.

.. and you think you got IQ. Sigh.

By: Henri

Henri — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 01:06:18 +0000

Until that time comes, what is to be done? Leave those left behind to squalor and misery? "Humanely encourage" them not to have children?

It's not *that* bad. There are more important things than intelligence in determining quality of life. For instance, I would argue the morality of the citizenry is more important than its intelligence.

I already wrote a long comment on another post about the Amish, but they're a good example here too. They're not educated or bright, they will never participate in the modern economy nor ever contribute to humanity's knowledge, they employ archaic technology and accept little help from the modern societies that surround them and yet still they have a reasonable quality of life.

By: Sandgroper

Sandgroper — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 00:16:15 +0000

“All true histories contain instruction; though, in some, the treasure may be hard to find, and when found, so trivial in quantity that the dry, shrivelled kernel scarcely compensates for the trouble of cracking the nut.”

“Agnes Grey”, Anne Brontë

By: wongba

wongba — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:22:57 +0000

As for anecdotes, what is life but one long anecdote. Aren't stats made of anecodotes and vice versa. Stats are just a compressed format for displaying anecdotes.

sure they are. but one life is an unrepresentative anecdote. the ppl who frequent this site probably have unrepresentative anecdotes just as watson might.

By: razib

razib — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:03:17 +0000

It means essentially having to come to the conclusion that with the tools at hand now, we can't do much to fix a lot of problems in the world causing massive human suffering.

that's why the analogy to religion is so appropriate!

By: Spike Gomes

Spike Gomes — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:28:03 +0000

Wow, that Nigerian comment was incredibly depressing, but it does highlight the crux of the problem and the problem many people have with the issue.

The writer of the missive assumes that if Africans just worked harder, then their “God-given” gifts would shine through. Now we all know that’s not so, but it does highlight one thing. Say by fiat, everyone came to the conclusion of genetic differences in intelligence across human groups.

Now what? We all like to talk about the wonders of gene therepy for intelligence right around the corner, but really, none of us has crystal balls saying that it’ll be ready in any foreseeable future for us. Until that time comes, what is to be done? Leave those left behind to squalor and misery? “Humanely encourage” them not to have children? Restore some sort of tounge-clucking paternalism? I really can’t think of many even barely pleasant choices. Sometimes I wonder why no one attempts to see why others vehemently deny hbd when it comes to intelligence. It goes beyond just having some sort of “PC” worldview get shattered. It means essentially having to come to the conclusion that with the tools at hand now, we can’t do much to fix a lot of problems in the world causing massive human suffering.

By: MeMeMe

MeMeMe — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:06:39 +0000

A Nigerian comments on Watson:

http://allafrica.com/stories/200710250639.html

By: mc

mc — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:25:31 +0000

Benn’s declaration of love for several billion members of the far eastern sino-races is a little idealistic–not that there’s anything wrong with that. Many people these days would attribute such love to reincarnation; but here at gnxp, it’s because the Asians are 1/3 of a standard deviation above the norm.
In my humble opinion, though, Benn is right that humility is the sugar that could have made Watson’s pill go down. That, along with the Copernicus method, the impersonal, passive-voice declaration: “it is said that the earth goes around the sun….but we faithful know better, etc.etc.”

As for anecdotes, what is life but one long anecdote. Aren’t stats made of anecodotes and vice versa. Stats are just a compressed format for displaying anecdotes.

By: Herod

Herod — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:17:57 +0000

For an article published in the Guardian Sue Blackmore’s contribution was shockingly reasonable, even possibly overstepping the mark in terms of school pupils being sorted by race rather than by IQ.

By: razib

razib — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:09:03 +0000

lower the temperature everyone. there are many scream fests on the web about this topic. not interested in hosting another one.

By: wongba

wongba — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:08:14 +0000

Replace the term Asian with Black, and your comment still stands true.

okay... so then u've just admitted ur argument is bunk. watson shouldn't have said anything at all w/ regards to personal experience. making controversial blanket statements from personal observations is just dumb.

u seem to imply that u believe racial iq determines some sort of genetic heirarchy. that isn't backed up by science or by scientists like watson. he only went so far as to say black iq is lower than that of other races. higher iq != genetic superiority.

By: Benn

Benn — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:16:30 +0000

with a random asian employee is definitely not guaranteed to prove anything at all.

Replace the term Asian with Black, and your comment still stands true.

So the question is again, if one is truly an objective scientist, ... Im tired of explaining this. You cant wake someone who's pretending to sleep.

And calling me "asiaphile" . You want to minimize me to a what? - a demeaning label so my argument would just be taken for granted?

Monolithic? Do you think all Europeans are as bright as Germans?

By: BJ and the Bear

BJ and the Bear — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:12:43 +0000

I thank him for broaching the subject, even if ineloquently. I think lots of preconceptions about what we know about IQ will be shattered in the wake of this story.