Comments on: Fitness is scalable for the rich

By: gene berman

gene berman — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:06:24 +0000

Dan:

I was thinking of writing A Farewell to Arums but realized I don't know anything about 'em.

By: gene berman

gene berman — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 06:51:04 +0000

Dan:

Just reference to the remark that they didn't reach the Malthusian limit--starvation--because those other activities kept them "well under."

You pays yer money and picks yer Malthusian limit.

Or maybe God does it. (Yer gets to pick yer explanation, too.) And yer description: nasty, brutish, and short or nasty, brutish, and shorter. More than one way to skin whatever yer a mind to. Or, whatever floats yer ark. And, since I brought it up: Did Noah get weather reports from NOAA?

Sorry--I sometimes get under the influence (of stuff like "though he might have been more humble, there's no police like Holmes." and I just have to get it out of my system.

By: Dan tdaxp

Dan tdaxp — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:27:05 +0000

Razib,

"even ag societies not at the malthusian limit, like farmers on the american western frontier, probably are subject to more epidemics because of their relative density."

Right. In "Farewell to Alms," Clark emphasizes that East Asian societies managed much higher population densities than Europe, because the European lifestyle was filthier (hence more disease, less people, higher living standards).

Gene,

"If feuds, violence, and war are all that separate you from starvation, you've reached the Malthusian limit."

Could you rephrase? I don't understand this.

By: razib

razib — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:08:36 +0000

i think wongba is right. that is what i assumed it was, and casual googling seems to confirm assessment. it would be nice if life history biologists would use english when possible ;-) but since this is out of a finn lab one can’t expect too much intelligibility….

By: razib

razib — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:05:53 +0000

It is quite probable, as well, that the hunter-gathering band is likely to approach such straits as the Malthusian far more slowly through some voluntary limitation of fecundity, recognizing the interference such offspring pose to their food-gathering requirement of frequent site-change.

by 'voluntary limitation' = infanticide & extended weening. but you're right, many HG groups are notably anti-natalist because they can't drag a gaggle of toddlers around. mobility serves as a constraint. the number of gestations that a farmer's wife is expected to go through is freakish.

By: gene berman

gene berman — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:05:40 +0000

Henry and Wongba:

I’m also somewhat puzzled but interpreted it as signifying a period of change upon completion of which the individual becomes a net contributor to the fortunes of the group.

By: gene berman

gene berman — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:01:30 +0000

Dan:

If feuds, violence, and war are all that separate you from starvation, you've reached the Malthusian limit.

By: gene berman

gene berman — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:53:28 +0000

By: wongba

wongba — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:22:55 +0000

What does "recruitment" mean here?

i was puzzled by this wording too. i looked it up and the best i can tell is that it means the offspring stays alive long enough to make it into the breeding population. i'm still not positive this is the true meaning however.

By: razib

razib — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:35:43 +0000

This is because hunter-gatherer societies can also be well below the Malthusian limit: if you kill enough people off through feuds, violence, and war, starvation never becomes an issue.

right. though i think lower population density & lack of mutualism with domesticate animals are independent parameters not related to malthusianism as such which one needs to take into account (the diverse diet is related to the malthusian limit obviously). i say population density is independent because even ag societies not at the malthusian limit, like farmers on the american western frontier, probably are subject to more epidemics because of their relative density.

By: henry Harpending

henry Harpending — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:15:26 +0000

What does “recruitment” mean here?

Henry Harpending

By: Dan tdaxp

Dan tdaxp — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:41:48 +0000

Razib,

Often, hunter-gatherer societies are far healthier than their settled cousins. (Farewell to Alms mentions the heights of the American Indians encountered by the western explorers, for instance.) This is because hunter-gatherer societies can also be well below the Malthusian limit: if you kill enough people off through feuds, violence, and war, starvation never becomes an issue.