Interracial marriage and Asian Americans

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As a follow up to Assman’s last post I was thinking I should link to this article from Asian-Nation which parses Census 2000 data on interracial marriage of various Asian American groups. Do read the article (caveats appropriate to identity politics organs), but I just took their data and placed it below the fold. Also, I modified it a little and added the ratios of men to women who marry whites by generation and immigration status. That is, the Census broke up individuals according to whether they were immigrants, or US-raised or born. There are some caveats with analyzing the data in that way; Asian Indians and Vietnamese have only 1 US-raised or born generation which is actually marrying right now. These groups are post-1965, in contrast to Japanese Americans, who are predominantly US-raised or born, with many 3rd, 4th and 5th generation individuals. With that stated, I was surprised at the relatively moderate sex ratios when you constrain marriages only to those where both partners are non-immigrants; i.e., pretty much acculturated as Americans. Arguably the most assimilated Asian American group on this list, the Japanese, have the second most balanced sex ratio, 0.829 between males and females in outmarriage to whites. Why the most second balanced? Asian Indians are tops in terms of balance. In fact, when you look at all marriages men outmarry somewhat more than women in this group. But Asian Indians are a bit different than the others on the list in a whole lot of ways. Look at the very low marriage rates to “Other Asians” for example. These might even include Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, etc., overstating intermarriage with the other groups on the list. The full table below the fold….

Marriage Patterns for Six Largest Asian American Ethnic Groups (Oct. 2007), Source Asian-Nation
All spouses US born/raised X US born or foreign born US born/raised X US born/raised

Asian Indians

Men (All) Male : female outmarriage ratio – 1.28
(All US born) Male : female outmarriage – 0.862
Asian Indian 91.9 73.3 56.7
Other Asian 0.9 2.7 2.8
White 5.5 18.5 31.3
Black 0.5 0.5 0.8
Hispanic/Latino 0.8 3.4 5.8
Multiracial & All Others 0.4 1.6 2.7
Women
Asian Indian 93.6 77.5 54.2
Other Asian 0.7 1.7 2.0
White 4.3 18.9 36.3
Black 0.5 1.4 2.8
Hispanic/Latino 0.4 1.4 2.7
Multiracial & All Others 0.5 0.9 1.9

Chinese

Men (All) Male : female outmarriage ratio – 0.381
(All US born) Male : female outmarriage – 0.735
Chinese 89.5 64.6 53.1
Other Asian 4.5 11.5 11.6
White 5.3 20.2 29.7
Black 0.1 0.3 0.5
Hispanic/Latino 0.7 2.1 3.0
Multiracial & All Others 0.4 1.4 2.0
Women
Chinese 81.5 54.0 44.6
Other Asian 2.7 7.3 7.8
White 13.9 32.8 40.4
Black 0.4 0.9 1.1
Hispanic/Latino 0.9 2.9 3.5
Multiracial & All Others 0.6 2.1 2.6

Filipinos

Men (All) Male : female outmarriage ratio – 0.338
(All US born) Male : female outmarriage – 0.779
Filipino 82.4 50.1 35.6
Other Asian 2.8 6.9 7.3
White 9.2 27.1 36.0
Black 0.3 1.2 1.3
Hispanic/Latino 2.9 8.3 11.1
Multiracial & All Others 2.3 6.3 8.4
Women
Filipino 61.1 37.6 28.4
Other Asian 2.8 6.4 6.9
White 27.2 40.0 46.2
Black 2.8 3.6 4.1
Hispanic/Latino 3.6 7.5 8.6
Multiracial & All Others 2.5 4.0 5.7

Japanese

Men (All) Male : female outmarriage ratio – 0.516
(All US born) Male : female outmarriage – 0.829
Japanese 63.9 55.0 53.7
Other Asian 9.9 12.4 9.4
White 19.7 24.0 27.2
Blacks 0.4 0.6 0.7
Hispanic/Latino 2.8 3.6 4.1
Multiracial & All Others 3.2 4.4 4.9
Women
Japanese 47.4 51.3 50.9
Other Asian 6.4 8.0 7.7
White 38.2 32.1 32.8
Black 1.6 0.7 0.8
Hispanic/Latino 2.8 3.0 3.1
Multiracial & All Others 3.7 4.8 4.9

Koreans

Men (All) Male : female outmarriage ratio – 0.232
(All US born) Male : female outmarriage – 0.663
Korean 90.7 60.7 39.5
Other Asian 2.6 9.6 12.5
White 5.5 24.9 40.3
Black 0.3 1.3 2.1
Hispanic/Latino 0.5 1.7 2.8
Multiracial & All Others 0.4 1.7 2.7
Women
Korean 69.4 35.3 22.5
Other Asian 3.7 9.4 8.9
White 23.7 48.9 60.8
Black 1.0 1.7 2.2
Hispanic/Latino 1.1 2.8 3.4
Multiracial & All Others 1.1 1.8 2.3

Vietnamese

Men (All) Male : female outmarriage ratio – 0.257
(All US born) Male : female outmarriage – 0.530
Vietnamese 92.3 76.9 71.0
Other Asian 2.9 7.0 5.8
White 2.9 10.5 15.0
Black 0.2 0.9 1.3
Hispanic/Latino 1.4 3.8 5.5
Multiracial & All Others 0.3 1.0 1.4
Women
Vietnamese 83.3 66.8 58.2
Other Asian 3.5 8.2 7.8
White 11.3 20.8 28.3
Black 0.5 1.7 2.4
Hispanic/Latino 0.7 1.3 1.7
Multiracial & All Others 0.7 1.2 1.6

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40 Comments

  1. Multicultural reality: 
     
     
    White men are bitter to black men. 
     
    Black women are bitter to white women. 
     
    East asian men are bitter to white men. 
     
    White women are bitter to East asian women. 
     
    East asian women are bitter to no-one. 
     
    Black men are also bitter to no… Hey! Why do they complain? Tell me what`s behind of all these hostile rap lyrics. Are they serious, or is that crap just a way to make money and get some white p****?

  2. why is that finnz have all the answers & questions on this blog??? btw, what’s your favorite finnish rapper?

  3. There’s only ever been one good rap act in the universe and every Finn who remembers the early 1990s knows what that is. Too bad they’re utterly untranslatable (since they’re so good).

  4. The breakdown of “Asian” into subgroups is a very good start to getting some facts into this debate. 
     
    Let me throw a few casual observations here to interpret the numbers: 
     
    1. Asian Indians 
     
    That is a ‘catch all’ category that include people of huge differences not only in nationality, caste (for Hindus and Muslims that converted)… etc. e.g. is this where an Indonesian would fit? 
     
    Having said that, male ‘Indians’ often import their spouse from ‘back home’ that are properly matched in terms of social standing, wealth, a good dowry, and other things that a ‘non-resident Indian’ professional can command. So it can be argued from the perspective of an Asian Indian woman brought up / born in the USA, there is a shortage of eligible Indian males — so they ‘outmarry’.  
     
    While this phenomena affects almost all ‘Asian’ males who have a large pool of potential spouses to draw on from their home country, the Indian phenomena is particularly because the selection of spouses is so bisected by the need to not marry out of faith and caste PLUS get a good dowry. 
     
    2. Chinese 
     
    With Chinese, caste is not an issue (mostly), but class, social standing, rank, etc. are. Furthermore, a lot of 1st generation Chinese males may show up as ‘single’ on the census here, but are in fact, ‘married’ and have spouses (plural) and children back home. So the data is skewed because it doesn’t ask the obvious question: do you have a concubine back home? 
     
    If you control for, a) generational effects (i.e. only count genuine ABCs (American Born Chinese), and also for socio-economic standing, you will find that the intermarriage rate is actually quite comparable for both males and females. There is a certain myth to the Asian male that keeps losing the competion…. 
     
    Another factor that skews the number in the last 20 years is the large importation of Chinese women to the US as spouses of non-Chinese males— via dating / marriage agencies that again, skew the numbers. Rarely are husbands imported even by Chinese women — comes from the tendency of women to want to marry UP, not down. 
     
    3. Fillpinos 
     
    This data is totally skewed by the large numbers of Filipino women that have been imported as spouses by non-Asians (mostly white), and also spouses of serviceman — courtesy of the long term US presence in the Philippines. 
     
    Drop those two categories out of the equation, and how does the number look? 
     
    4. Japanese 
     
    This data is perhaps the most interesting — large scale migration of Japanese ceased early in the 20th century, and the importation of Japanese spouses slowed to a trickle by the 1960s.  
     
    What is fascinating is the ‘out marriage’ rate is strikingly similar between males and females and the slight difference between males / females do not suggest a huge imbalance between males and females. 
     
    5. Koreans 
     
    Military spouses is a huge explanation here. See discussion above. 
     
    6. Vietnamese 
     
    Here, it is socio-economic as many Vietnamese males are not in well paying professional jobs. Control for this factor, and you will see that accounts for a large amount of the ‘out marriage’ rate by females. 
     
    Finally, there is another issue: Most ‘Asians’ are pretty picky about not out marrying outside of their own narrow group (i.e. Cantonese prefer Cantonese, an ‘out marriage’ is regarded as marrying a Shanghainese), or outside of their caste (for Indians or Muslims who converted from Hinduism), or their own socio-economic classes. 
     
    Once you start to do micro analysis, especially controlling for the large scale importation of foreign born spouses, these big brush demographics break down. 
     
    For example — it is well documented that white women over 45 have terrible marriage prospects. Could this be because men (white etc.) opted for younger spouses? Especially as such younger spouses are available from the Ukraine, Russia, etc.? 
     
    Details, details, please.

  5. A few Asian guys losers make bigger noise about their pity and a few white guys losers make metal masturbation about themself. End of story.

  6. Japanese have a fairly balanced outmarriage ratio, but aside from the newly arrived Vietnamese, both the males and females in the 3rd column have the lowest percentage marrying Whites. And aside from the newly arrived Vietnamese and Asian Indians, US-born Japanese males and females are the most likely to stay within their own group. 
     
    More evidence of Japanese snobbery?

  7. btw, where are the offspring of Asian Indian and Latino / Hispanic parents? that sounds so hot.

  8.  
    That is a ‘catch all’ category that include people of huge differences not only in nationality, caste (for Hindus and Muslims that converted)… etc. e.g. is this where an Indonesian would fit? 
     
     
    ‘asian indian’ means those who are from the nation of india, or ancestors are. it doesn’t include indonesians, let alone bangladeshis or pakistanis. additionally, it’s about 50% gujarati (mostly patel) and 25% punjabi. most of the balance is all over the place. the GSS says 23% of asian indians are christian, probably suggesting the large number of xtians from kerala + conversions (i’m assuming the N here is small, going off what inductivist said). 
     
    And aside from the newly arrived Vietnamese and Asian Indians, US-born Japanese males and females are the most likely to stay within their own group. 
     
    perhaps spatial concentration in hawaii and the west coast cities?

  9. razib: 
     
    I’d definately say so. The Japanese here are hella more clannish than the mainland ones. Up until the 1980s, outmarriage for both genders was something that risked you getting disowned by a passet of your older relatives. This in comparison to Chinese and especially Filipino, who’d marry outgroup in higher numbers. Nobody beat Hawaiians when it comes to outgroup marriage though. 
     
    Male Japanese-Americans here and Asians in general are more “rough” than the mainland, especially those outside of Honolulu. Part of the whole plantation heritage thing. Different set of expectations.

  10. Indonesians do not fit into any of the above categories. I would guess that there may not be large enough concentrations of them in the US to merit separate statistics. 
     
    Racially and linguistically, Indonesians are on average closest to Filipinos (a Javanese, for example, would be difficult to distinguish visually from someone from Manila; and Philippine languages such as Tagalog and Cebuano are more closely related to West Indonesian languages (in Java, Sumatra, Borneo/Kalimantan etc. than the latter are to East Indonesian languages (in Flores, Timor, the Moluccas etc). 
     
    But the dominant religious in Indonesian is Islam whereas in the Philippines it is Catholicism. Cultural and religious affiliation is highly relevant to outmarriage patterns as marriage of Muslim women to non-Muslims is unacceptable to the majority of Muslims. In cases where Muslim Indonesian women do marry foreigners, their families usually insist on formal the conversion to Islam of the prospective husband, including circumcision etc., and an Islamic marriage ceremony. 
     
    So it’s socially much easier for a Filipina to marry an outsider than for an Indonesian. Plus their English is usually much better. 
     
    To complicate things, a significant part of those Indonesian citizens who have the means and the will to travel abroad are ethnic Chinese (who comprise probably less than 5% of Indonesia’s total population but are highly visible in urban and coastal areas and are very dominant economically).

  11. I think the data would be MUCH more skewed if you were looking at DATING disparities. 
     
    Family pressures, as well as the need to marry someone with a decent job, generally forces women to look more towards their own kind for marriage. 
     
    However, asian males can still be frustrated in the dating game, as their women date white guys, even if they ultimately marry asian.  
     
    It’s nearly impossible to do that kind of analysis. However, I think Columbia did a study on dating preferences some time ago that reconfirmed the racial gaps. And the study could not have been biased by importation of spouses or family abroad.

  12. the article linked has these data: 
     
    Unmarried Asian Men Living with . . . 
    Asians 63.4 
    Whites 26.5 
    Blacks 1.0 
    Hispanics/Latinos 5.5 
     
    Unmarried Asian Women Living with . . . 
    Asians 45.2 
    Whites 39.7 
    Blacks 5.0 
    Hispanics/Latinos 5.8 
     
    there is a fair amount of social science data that there is a very strong preference for same race dating, especially among women (i do not think this means women are more racist, rather, they have different priorities than men). that being said, revealed preferences (e.g., marriage data above) are a different thing altogether. just because a white woman says that an asian man would have to make $250,000 dollars a year for her to consider dating him doesn’t mean that in reality her ideal is reflected in the sort of asian men who date and marry white women (i assume that the avowed preference has some impact, but the 250 K threshold is obvioulsy not realistically implemented). specifically, the more you know someone, whether it be a friend or at the workplace the less stereotypes serve as a barrier. if asian american men were pressured to work hard and invest time in social interactions to the same extent that they are pressured to invest in academics i think a lot of the whining would be mitigated. obviously a good looking tall white dude is going to beat you on first impression every time; the key is to bring other parameters to the fore over time. women do settle.

  13. My wife is a beautiful brown intelligent Filipina. No, Im not some ugly loser who cant find someone. No I did not import her from the Philippines. I met her in an LAX airport departure area, She just had this bright warm smile, she was with her mom and although I dont understand the language I just knew they were talking about me. Well my wife’s version is that they were making fun of me, the bright warm smile is a suppressed laughter. I was in my uniform and her Mom said – that Salvation Army guy is cute. 
     
    She’s a therapist, not a mail order bride. It is just so damn insulting for anyone to suggest that Filipina wives came out of the mail order envelope. You should do your research before insinuating about “the numbers”.  
    I am an Air Force Pilot.

  14. LOL. dude kent, don’t take it so personally.

  15. For asian indians expect some of these numbers to change. High school asian indian kids born and brought up in the US are undergoing a very rapid (what I call) ghetto-ization. Upper SE indians have clustered in upscale suburbs in major metro areas. As such for the kids, 80% or more of their social interactions occur with other indian kids. And this runs the gamut, AP classes; cliques; dating;watching bollywood movies in preference to hollywood; parties where the music is bollywood and bhangrapop etc etc etc. the list goes on. This subculture is evolving very rapidly.

  16. “why is that finnz have all the answers & questions on this blog??? btw, what’s your favorite finnish rapper?” 
     
    These guys are pretty cool. Dont ya think? 
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHjtAVkum9E&feature=related

  17. Mail order brides (MOB’s) may not have as much an effect on the gender ratio of Asian/white marriages as some might except. MOB’s are a favorite blogosphere meme, but actual numbers are more limited. 
     
    I haven’t found any official or reliable unofficial statistics dealing specifically with MOB’s. It’s possible to estimate their numbers, albeit crudely, by looking at the number of fiance/foreign spouse visas issued each year. MOB’s would enter the United States using these visas, though they’re far from the only people using them. Nonetheless, if we’re to assume for the sake of argument that every person entering the United States using a fiance/foreign spouse visa is an MOB, and compare the number of these visas issued each year to the number of marriages taking place in America each year, MOB’s account for about one-half of one percent of all marriages. Again, the true percentage is almost certainly less. 
     
    I just don’t see the MOB factor as accounting for more than a small part of the “gender gap” in Asian/white marriages.

  18. Don’t call it ‘mail order’, call it spouse from abroad (which properly would include persons who come to the US for one reason or another (from students to illegal immigrants and ended up staying in USA through either marriage or other means — which include getting a job that gives them legal status beside via the marriage route.) and you have quite a larger number than 1/2 of 1% of all marriages. 
     
    The illegals in country are known to be quite a bit larger. I am not knowledgeable enough as to whether what is referred to as ‘visas by marriage’ would include those who arrived (legal or not) in USA, and then get married and get an ‘adjustment of status’ to permanent residence status. Add all these figures up… and they add up. 
     
    On that subject, 1/2 of 1% of all marriages on an annual basis do add up cumulatively. Furthermore, the number of marriages is much larger than the raw number of persons because of the persistence and prevalence of multiple (serial and the occasional parallel) marriages. So detune the number somehow to bring it back in line with the population… and again, you get a different picture. 
     
    The point is, I really think the idea of ‘Asians’ losing out is a statistical oddity that may have a lot less ommph to it once it is subject to real detailed analysis of the numbers.

  19. The illegals in country are known to be quite a bit larger. I am not knowledgeable enough as to whether what is referred to as ‘visas by marriage’ would include those who arrived (legal or not) in USA, and then get married and get an ‘adjustment of status’ to permanent residence status. Add all these figures up… and they add up. 
     
    Off topic but interestingly enough, you cannot adjust your status if you came into the US illegally i.e. (sneaked in through the borders- technically called ‘Entry without Inspection’) 
     
    That is why the millions of illegal Mexican immigrants in the US cannot adjust their status by marrying a US Citizen.

  20. Ahhhh but historically, if you wait long enough, there are things like amnesties and immigration lotteries, or people who have been living together for quite a while (kids and all) finally decide to take the plunge and go legal…. Many are never legalized, so to speak, and just stay underground. 
     
    That is especially easy to do if you are female and a stay at home mom — until the 9/11 crackdowns, illegals like that had little difficulty getting a drivers license, ID, and all the other things. 
     
    FYI, the fastest growing category of illegal immigrants are from India, who typically arrive here legally on a short duration visa like a H visa, and then overstay the visa. These illegals are overwhelmingly male except in select occupational categories like Nursing.  
     
    If these people are counted in the ‘mix’ by the census, you can be rest assured that it skews the mix toward a male surplus.

  21. I hate to barge in with personal stories on such a data driven debate…. but…. 
     
    If you are ‘Asian’ in the 1950s…. apartheid was pretty much in order even if you are not black. But by the time the 70s come around, things start to change, and landlords no longer tell you that there is nothing available for the likes of that kind, and Asians no longer get denied service at restaurants.  
     
    Fast forward to the late 90s, and there has been a sea of change in attitudes. With ‘Asians’ now know to be successful, wealthy, and even the laggard of laggards, India, catching up with China, things changed yet again. 
     
    Personally, in my generation, I would say that serious discrimination on the dating front ended in the mid-80s…. there will always be the 1/3 of white women who wouldn’t date an Asian (and the same proportion that wouldn’t date outside of their ethnic group (i.e. Irish, Scottish, etc.), but there is 1/3 that is pretty open to the possibilities, and the other 1/3 that sits on the fence depending on what churns up. 
     
    The best indication of this is how willing are white women are to flirt…. on that indicator… I would say it is a pretty open field. 
     
    The skewed statistics have a historical legacy behind it…. look at the younger (30 or under set), and you will see totally different behavior. 
     
    Oh… here is another thought…. mixed Eurasian kids can be gorgeous and highly intelligent. That is one huge driver for Asians of both sexes to marry outside of their race.  
     
    Every time I look at my kids (the mixed ones), I kick myself to be sure I wasn’t dreaming. 
     
    And btw, it is not just me, but other parents (of all races) who say this — come up to us, unsolicited, commenting on how gorgeous the kids are.

  22. Im sorry, Number Cruncher, where exactly do you get your numbers for your (presumptous ) reasoning? Like stating that single Chinese men have concubines so they are not really single. There is 3 to 1 male to female ratio in China 3 or 2 guys have the same concubine? Furthermore, the word “concubine” is commonly used in Chinese culture so I bet youre another chinese male trying to save face of those single chinese males.  
     
    and this: 
     
    FYI, the fastest growing category of illegal immigrants are from India,.. 
     
    “FYI” ?!? Where are you resources?  
     
    FYI, the chinese males comes through the US in shipping containers.

  23. http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_8293975 
     
     
    Illegal emigres defy the image 
    FASTEST GROWING SOURCE? IT’S INDIA 
    By Mike Swift 
    Mercury News 
    Article Launched: 02/18/2008 01:30:47 AM PST 
     
     
     
    The Bay Area has a piece of the nation’s fastest growing group of illegal immigrants. But don’t assume you know who they are. 
     
    Turning stereotypes on their head, a recent federal analysis of unauthorized immigration says the most rapidly growing source of illegal immigration is India – the same country whose engineers and programmers help power Google and other Silicon Valley companies, whose doctors heal the Bay Area’s sick, and whose entrepreneurs and venture capitalists have become a force on both sides of the international date line. 
     
    The U.S. Department of Homeland Security estimates that there are 270,000 unauthorized Indian natives in the United States – a 125 percent jump since 2000, the largest percentage increase of any nation with more than 100,000 illegal immigrants in the United States.

  24. ONLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE DOCUMENTS AT THE START OF THEIR ENTRY. Thus they were able to count —ooops 10 little Indians came in, 2 went home, 8 now underground. 
     
    Do you know how many shipping containers come in from CHINA every day?  
     
    OOOPSS, 20 came in shipping container 1 in long beach, 22 from LA, thats 42…. Wait a minute, thats from this morning only.  
     
    perhaps 500,000 among the estimated 13 million “unauthorized migrants 
     
    500,000!!! and thats from last year. 
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12174500/ 
    http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2006_news_releases/042006/04052006.xml 
    http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/insideice/articles/InsideICE_041105_Web2.htm 
    http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/01/14/chinese.smugglers/

  25. THEN add the visa jumpers, fake student, fake businessmen, fake fiancee, etc.

  26. Ask a chinese illegal immigrant where he came from, he will always say HongKong, that way, when he’s deported, he wont be returned to mainland China. LOL.

  27. can we not go off topic too much? i was to understand that the fastest growing illegal group was from india as well…. 
     
    in any case, remember that the marriage numbers represent a terminus of a process. the experience of a typical 20something asian amerian vs. white male who is a professional might be very different nonetheless. a korean american friend of mine would tell me how his mother would note that all the white women married to korean american men at their church were fat or ugly. i don’t know if this is true, but the overall point was that all things being equal a korean male + white female equalizes the race status gap on other parameters (i really doubt that korean american males prefer ugly or fat women for cultural reasons ;-). so, it could be that even if the marriage rates aren’t that skewed, the experiences might differ a great deal up till marriage, and the “quality” of the potential marriage partner might vary in ways which reflect the relative lack of interest in asian american males because of their their race. a good way to check on this might be age at first marriage for asian american males vs. white males. perhaps asian american males would have to wait longer because there was less demand for them? 
     
    anyway, these are just speculations. the point about marriage data is that it is better to have facts to fill in the gaps of experience. i was frankly surprised at the sex ratios equalizing so much with assimilation. just as i was surprised to learn that white females wanted asian american males to make $250,000/year before they would consider dating them on equal terms with white males. these data don’t tell the whole story though, they just add some depth to the picture.

  28. The $250k is number thrown up from a few speed dating trials, where people are trying to make relatively quick decisions.  
     
    However, most mating decisions, even for the President of France, take more than the 3 to 8 minutes typical of speed dating organizations.  
     
    The data tells you very little about more enduring mate choices.  
     
    What is missing / absent is speed dating data from other countries — then it makes for real interesting compares.

  29. his mother would note that all the white women married to korean american men at their church were fat or ugly. 
     
    its funny u mention that b/c many east asians think the asian women white guys go for are ugly. the fact that lucy liu has become so popular has a lot of east asians scratching their heads.

  30. the fact that lucy liu has become so popular has a lot of east asians scratching their heads. 
     
    wutz wrong with her? i wouldn’t say she’s drop dead, but she’s attractive it seems. though someone like ziyi zhang seems a notch or two above her.

  31. Raz, among the Chinese guys I know (and I know a lot of Chinese guys) Lucy Liu is a kind of standard ‘dumb foreigner’ joke – not one of them thinks she is attractive. The women agree. Bad skin and pug ugly is the consensus. 
     
    Wongba is right on the money. He’s calibrated.

  32. Well, Lucy Liu can be attributed to Hollywood’s sense of quota. 
     
    What is fascinating is how few Bollywood and Chinese actresses / actors have made a big name internationally outside of their home markets. Some of this can be attributed to the power and capabilities of the Western marketing machine, but not all. 
     
    Another way to look at the ‘ugly white’ spouse is that there is a well documented phenomena where Chinese / Oriental women (and men) shows the signs of age at different paces / rates. Baldness is far less common, and grey hair often do not show until age 50 for Asian males, Asian (Oriental, not Indian) females tend to age slower until about 45, whereas white European females tend to show that level of aging (fatter figure, thinner and greyer hair, wrinkles in face, bulging belly, flabby skin, etc.) by 35, and you have another phenomena, which is Asian orientals generally look younger, fitter and trimmer even after a few kids at age 45. So the part of the mating game based on looks goes in an Asian male’s favor over time (age 30 to 40). 
     
    Compound this with the fact that the average Asian Oriental in America (broadly speaking) is thinner and smaller frame to begin with because migrants to the US have been overwhelmingly dominated by people from areas of Asia with shorter people, (true in the southern Chinese and Japanese, not true for Korean, etc.) and you run into another well documented phenomena with preferences for mates. 
     
    Regardless of race, females will go for a male that is at least the same size or larger. The need for a larger male is well documented across species where competition in mating involves males fighting each other for the ‘prize’., which favored the bigger, physically stronger male. Mind you, a corollary of that rule might be that it favors the smarter male since much of the fight now is not physical, but intellectual! 
     
    There is a mismatch in the US between Oriental males originating from areas of Asia that are smaller and shorter and white females who are on average, taller and fatter because they originated from places with larger frames (Northern Europe, etc.) 
     
    So a bit of inherent negative selection goes on based on physical attributes. This is not a racial phenomena — you rarely see a 6ft+ woman married to a 5’5″ male of any race. So to be fair, the data would need to be corrected to remove this kind of non-racial bias based on size and body shape, and also of the inherent competitive advantages / disadvantages caused by different rates of visible aging across different races. 
     
    As for the perception that Asian males have to marry ‘fat and ugly’ white women, oh, well, how much of that is true, how much is blunt, prejudice based on annoyance at another race ‘stealing’ a good man or woman, I don’t know. A good bit of that can be attributed to the fact that White Europeans of both sexes in general do age faster than Asian oriental unless they spend considerable time and effort in exercise, plastic surgery, etc.  
     
    How many balding Asian males have you seen with big, fat beer bellies?  
     
    How many Asian women have you seen that wears size 3X or larger, weights over 300lbs on a 5′ 5″ frame? 
     
    For those who care, take out the race dimension for a second — look at the hostility directed at European women (English, French, Italian, German) who came to the US as war brides during / after World War II. It is amazing the hostility directed at them in the USA — because they are seen as competitors to women in the US. The hostility was / is also directed at men who took such women as spouses — look at the annoyance at seeing a fat, balding, working class middle aged white male with his 30 year younger blond, blue eyed, Russian bride.

  33. Razib: 
     
    “the fact that lucy liu has become so popular has a lot of east asians scratching their heads. 
     
    wutz wrong with her? i wouldn’t say she’s drop dead, but she’s attractive it seems. though someone like ziyi zhang seems a notch or two above her.” 
     
    What’s wrong? 
     
    1) single eye lids (not double). 
     
    2) too dark 
     
    3) looks old, not girlish and “fresh” 
     
    If you look at Chinese, Korean, and Japan celebrities (tv personalities, actresses) they tend to be quite pale (not pasty reddish white, but porcelain type white), have “double lids” (natural or through surgery, usually in Korea through surgery), and be very girlish and typically under 35. You would be hard pressed to find a 40 year old actress in an Asian nation that is very popular with younger people. My wife says the same thing as Wongba about Lucy Lui, and especially the Korean-Canadian chick on Grey?s Anatomy. She was not too fond of the Chinese-American (Ming Na Wen) that used to be on ER either. None of them would have jobs in East Asia on TV for anything but comedy, if that. I don?t feel that is an exaggeration. East Asian posters feel free to chime in.

  34. Its refreshing to know that despite the scarcity of women in China, Chinese men, like their western counterparts are also shallow creatures who grade a woman’s attractiveness base on the number of eyelids she has.

  35. Oh, eyelids ain’t nothin’. You should have lived in the foot-binding era. 
     
    Me, I’m a single eyelid man. I used to have the hots for Sandy Lam. 
     
    http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood/4073/sandyyescarsdphotos.htm 
     
    Now, there’s a woman with eyelids a man could love. 
     
    She can also sing a bit, by the way, more than you can say for most.

  36. Razib: 
     
    This might be instructive as far as Lucy Lui: 
     
    http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/east-asian-and-western-beauty-standards/ 
     
    Look at the post at the bottom of this thread…there is a link to a Japanese Fashion Mag. Look at the women there and there are also links to some famous North American East Asian actresses. I think the difference is telling.

  37. Good god! Korean and Chinese women favor whites over their own kind. Soon a hybrid race of White-Asians will emerge just as many Mexicans are White-Indian products. And what will these hybrids prefer?

  38. Here is an interesting aside to Indians who move abroad and abandon their “brides” or “spouses”. Is it not reasonable to assume that at least some Indians living abroad in places like the US have family back home — whether they acknowledge it or not to census takers? 
     
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/22/AR2008022203178_pf.html 
     
    “With an estimated 30,000 brides being abandoned every year, usually by husbands living abroad, India’s Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs also recommends that families hire private detectives to vet suitors and avoid being conned into giving away dowries, which are officially outlawed here but are still common among the wealthy. The ministry estimates that hundreds of thousands of brides are lied to or misled each year.”

  39. For those who are really interested in what happens when there are high levels of racial mixing, it is worthwhile to look at the data for UK, Canada and Australia where immigration have drastically changed the face of the countries in the last 30 years. 
     
    The data will have to be corrected by the factors listed here, and some other ones like generational effects. 
     
    Without seeing the data, if I were to bet, I would say that once the data is normalized, the ‘excess’ of ‘Asian’ males disappears pretty quickly.

  40. Lucy Liu was a year behind me at the same high school, and I don’t remember her at all. She wasn’t hot enough, as a high school student, to stand out from the crowd.

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