Comments on: Interracial marriage and Asian Americans

By: Half Sigma

Half Sigma — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:11:13 +0000

Lucy Liu was a year behind me at the same high school, and I don’t remember her at all. She wasn’t hot enough, as a high school student, to stand out from the crowd.

By: Number Cruncher

Number Cruncher — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:27:00 +0000

For those who are really interested in what happens when there are high levels of racial mixing, it is worthwhile to look at the data for UK, Canada and Australia where immigration have drastically changed the face of the countries in the last 30 years.

The data will have to be corrected by the factors listed here, and some other ones like generational effects.

Without seeing the data, if I were to bet, I would say that once the data is normalized, the 'excess' of 'Asian' males disappears pretty quickly.

By: Number Cruncher

Number Cruncher — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:57:52 +0000

Here is an interesting aside to Indians who move abroad and abandon their "brides" or "spouses". Is it not reasonable to assume that at least some Indians living abroad in places like the US have family back home --- whether they acknowledge it or not to census takers?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/22/AR2008022203178_pf.html

"With an estimated 30,000 brides being abandoned every year, usually by husbands living abroad, India's Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs also recommends that families hire private detectives to vet suitors and avoid being conned into giving away dowries, which are officially outlawed here but are still common among the wealthy. The ministry estimates that hundreds of thousands of brides are lied to or misled each year."

By: Jim

Jim — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:07:12 +0000

Good god! Korean and Chinese women favor whites over their own kind. Soon a hybrid race of White-Asians will emerge just as many Mexicans are White-Indian products. And what will these hybrids prefer?

By: Longma

Longma — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 06:14:14 +0000

Razib:

This might be instructive as far as Lucy Lui:

http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/east-asian-and-western-beauty-standards/

Look at the post at the bottom of this thread...there is a link to a Japanese Fashion Mag. Look at the women there and there are also links to some famous North American East Asian actresses. I think the difference is telling.

By: Sandgroper

Sandgroper — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:07:07 +0000

Oh, eyelids ain't nothin'. You should have lived in the foot-binding era.

Me, I'm a single eyelid man. I used to have the hots for Sandy Lam.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood/4073/sandyyescarsdphotos.htm

Now, there's a woman with eyelids a man could love.

She can also sing a bit, by the way, more than you can say for most.

By: Glenn

Glenn — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:47:13 +0000

Its refreshing to know that despite the scarcity of women in China, Chinese men, like their western counterparts are also shallow creatures who grade a woman’s attractiveness base on the number of eyelids she has.

By: Longma

Longma — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:23:30 +0000

Razib:

"the fact that lucy liu has become so popular has a lot of east asians scratching their heads.

wutz wrong with her? i wouldn't say she's drop dead, but she's attractive it seems. though someone like ziyi zhang seems a notch or two above her."

What's wrong?

1) single eye lids (not double).

2) too dark

3) looks old, not girlish and "fresh"

If you look at Chinese, Korean, and Japan celebrities (tv personalities, actresses) they tend to be quite pale (not pasty reddish white, but porcelain type white), have "double lids" (natural or through surgery, usually in Korea through surgery), and be very girlish and typically under 35. You would be hard pressed to find a 40 year old actress in an Asian nation that is very popular with younger people. My wife says the same thing as Wongba about Lucy Lui, and especially the Korean-Canadian chick on Grey?s Anatomy. She was not too fond of the Chinese-American (Ming Na Wen) that used to be on ER either. None of them would have jobs in East Asia on TV for anything but comedy, if that. I don?t feel that is an exaggeration. East Asian posters feel free to chime in.

By: Number Cruncher

Number Cruncher — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:37:39 +0000

Well, Lucy Liu can be attributed to Hollywood's sense of quota.

What is fascinating is how few Bollywood and Chinese actresses / actors have made a big name internationally outside of their home markets. Some of this can be attributed to the power and capabilities of the Western marketing machine, but not all.

Another way to look at the 'ugly white' spouse is that there is a well documented phenomena where Chinese / Oriental women (and men) shows the signs of age at different paces / rates. Baldness is far less common, and grey hair often do not show until age 50 for Asian males, Asian (Oriental, not Indian) females tend to age slower until about 45, whereas white European females tend to show that level of aging (fatter figure, thinner and greyer hair, wrinkles in face, bulging belly, flabby skin, etc.) by 35, and you have another phenomena, which is Asian orientals generally look younger, fitter and trimmer even after a few kids at age 45. So the part of the mating game based on looks goes in an Asian male's favor over time (age 30 to 40).

Compound this with the fact that the average Asian Oriental in America (broadly speaking) is thinner and smaller frame to begin with because migrants to the US have been overwhelmingly dominated by people from areas of Asia with shorter people, (true in the southern Chinese and Japanese, not true for Korean, etc.) and you run into another well documented phenomena with preferences for mates.

Regardless of race, females will go for a male that is at least the same size or larger. The need for a larger male is well documented across species where competition in mating involves males fighting each other for the 'prize'., which favored the bigger, physically stronger male. Mind you, a corollary of that rule might be that it favors the smarter male since much of the fight now is not physical, but intellectual!

There is a mismatch in the US between Oriental males originating from areas of Asia that are smaller and shorter and white females who are on average, taller and fatter because they originated from places with larger frames (Northern Europe, etc.)

So a bit of inherent negative selection goes on based on physical attributes. This is not a racial phenomena --- you rarely see a 6ft+ woman married to a 5'5" male of any race. So to be fair, the data would need to be corrected to remove this kind of non-racial bias based on size and body shape, and also of the inherent competitive advantages / disadvantages caused by different rates of visible aging across different races.

As for the perception that Asian males have to marry 'fat and ugly' white women, oh, well, how much of that is true, how much is blunt, prejudice based on annoyance at another race 'stealing' a good man or woman, I don't know. A good bit of that can be attributed to the fact that White Europeans of both sexes in general do age faster than Asian oriental unless they spend considerable time and effort in exercise, plastic surgery, etc.

How many balding Asian males have you seen with big, fat beer bellies?

How many Asian women have you seen that wears size 3X or larger, weights over 300lbs on a 5' 5" frame?

For those who care, take out the race dimension for a second --- look at the hostility directed at European women (English, French, Italian, German) who came to the US as war brides during / after World War II. It is amazing the hostility directed at them in the USA --- because they are seen as competitors to women in the US. The hostility was / is also directed at men who took such women as spouses --- look at the annoyance at seeing a fat, balding, working class middle aged white male with his 30 year younger blond, blue eyed, Russian bride.

By: Sandgroper

Sandgroper — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:11:21 +0000

Raz, among the Chinese guys I know (and I know a lot of Chinese guys) Lucy Liu is a kind of standard ‘dumb foreigner’ joke – not one of them thinks she is attractive. The women agree. Bad skin and pug ugly is the consensus.

Wongba is right on the money. He’s calibrated.

By: razib

razib — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:19:43 +0000

the fact that lucy liu has become so popular has a lot of east asians scratching their heads.

wutz wrong with her? i wouldn't say she's drop dead, but she's attractive it seems. though someone like ziyi zhang seems a notch or two above her.

By: wongba

wongba — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:52:20 +0000

his mother would note that all the white women married to korean american men at their church were fat or ugly.

its funny u mention that b/c many east asians think the asian women white guys go for are ugly. the fact that lucy liu has become so popular has a lot of east asians scratching their heads.

By: Number Cruncher

Number Cruncher — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:03:49 +0000

The $250k is number thrown up from a few speed dating trials, where people are trying to make relatively quick decisions.

However, most mating decisions, even for the President of France, take more than the 3 to 8 minutes typical of speed dating organizations.

The data tells you very little about more enduring mate choices.

What is missing / absent is speed dating data from other countries --- then it makes for real interesting compares.

By: razib

razib — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:39:55 +0000

can we not go off topic too much? i was to understand that the fastest growing illegal group was from india as well….

in any case, remember that the marriage numbers represent a terminus of a process. the experience of a typical 20something asian amerian vs. white male who is a professional might be very different nonetheless. a korean american friend of mine would tell me how his mother would note that all the white women married to korean american men at their church were fat or ugly. i don’t know if this is true, but the overall point was that all things being equal a korean male + white female equalizes the race status gap on other parameters (i really doubt that korean american males prefer ugly or fat women for cultural reasons ;-). so, it could be that even if the marriage rates aren’t that skewed, the experiences might differ a great deal up till marriage, and the “quality” of the potential marriage partner might vary in ways which reflect the relative lack of interest in asian american males because of their their race. a good way to check on this might be age at first marriage for asian american males vs. white males. perhaps asian american males would have to wait longer because there was less demand for them?

anyway, these are just speculations. the point about marriage data is that it is better to have facts to fill in the gaps of experience. i was frankly surprised at the sex ratios equalizing so much with assimilation. just as i was surprised to learn that white females wanted asian american males to make $250,000/year before they would consider dating them on equal terms with white males. these data don’t tell the whole story though, they just add some depth to the picture.

By: MELM

MELM — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:30:34 +0000

Ask a chinese illegal immigrant where he came from, he will always say HongKong, that way, when he’s deported, he wont be returned to mainland China. LOL.

By: MELM

MELM — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:26:03 +0000

THEN add the visa jumpers, fake student, fake businessmen, fake fiancee, etc.

By: MELM

MELM — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:20:50 +0000

ONLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE DOCUMENTS AT THE START OF THEIR ENTRY. Thus they were able to count ---ooops 10 little Indians came in, 2 went home, 8 now underground.

Do you know how many shipping containers come in from CHINA every day?

OOOPSS, 20 came in shipping container 1 in long beach, 22 from LA, thats 42.... Wait a minute, thats from this morning only.

perhaps 500,000 among the estimated 13 million "unauthorized migrants

500,000!!! and thats from last year.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12174500/
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/newsroom/news_releases/archives/2006_news_releases/042006/04052006.xml
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/insideice/articles/InsideICE_041105_Web2.htm
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/01/14/chinese.smugglers/

By: Number Cruncher

Number Cruncher — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:08:43 +0000

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_8293975

Illegal emigres defy the image
FASTEST GROWING SOURCE? IT'S INDIA
By Mike Swift
Mercury News
Article Launched: 02/18/2008 01:30:47 AM PST

The Bay Area has a piece of the nation's fastest growing group of illegal immigrants. But don't assume you know who they are.

Turning stereotypes on their head, a recent federal analysis of unauthorized immigration says the most rapidly growing source of illegal immigration is India - the same country whose engineers and programmers help power Google and other Silicon Valley companies, whose doctors heal the Bay Area's sick, and whose entrepreneurs and venture capitalists have become a force on both sides of the international date line.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security estimates that there are 270,000 unauthorized Indian natives in the United States - a 125 percent jump since 2000, the largest percentage increase of any nation with more than 100,000 illegal immigrants in the United States.

By: MELM

MELM — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:59:38 +0000

Im sorry, Number Cruncher, where exactly do you get your numbers for your (presumptous ) reasoning? Like stating that single Chinese men have concubines so they are not really single. There is 3 to 1 male to female ratio in China 3 or 2 guys have the same concubine? Furthermore, the word "concubine" is commonly used in Chinese culture so I bet youre another chinese male trying to save face of those single chinese males.

and this:

FYI, the fastest growing category of illegal immigrants are from India,..

"FYI" ?!? Where are you resources?

FYI, the chinese males comes through the US in shipping containers.

By: Stereotype Asian American

Stereotype Asian American — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:48:17 +0000

I hate to barge in with personal stories on such a data driven debate.... but....

If you are 'Asian' in the 1950s.... apartheid was pretty much in order even if you are not black. But by the time the 70s come around, things start to change, and landlords no longer tell you that there is nothing available for the likes of that kind, and Asians no longer get denied service at restaurants.

Fast forward to the late 90s, and there has been a sea of change in attitudes. With 'Asians' now know to be successful, wealthy, and even the laggard of laggards, India, catching up with China, things changed yet again.

Personally, in my generation, I would say that serious discrimination on the dating front ended in the mid-80s.... there will always be the 1/3 of white women who wouldn't date an Asian (and the same proportion that wouldn't date outside of their ethnic group (i.e. Irish, Scottish, etc.), but there is 1/3 that is pretty open to the possibilities, and the other 1/3 that sits on the fence depending on what churns up.

The best indication of this is how willing are white women are to flirt.... on that indicator... I would say it is a pretty open field.

The skewed statistics have a historical legacy behind it.... look at the younger (30 or under set), and you will see totally different behavior.

Oh... here is another thought.... mixed Eurasian kids can be gorgeous and highly intelligent. That is one huge driver for Asians of both sexes to marry outside of their race.

Every time I look at my kids (the mixed ones), I kick myself to be sure I wasn't dreaming.

And btw, it is not just me, but other parents (of all races) who say this --- come up to us, unsolicited, commenting on how gorgeous the kids are.