Comments on: Why are Finns anxious?

By: SFG

SFG — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 04:28:55 +0000

I’m sure someone has thought of this before on this board, but could be the relationship between IQ and mental illness in Jews was the result of overclocking…they selected for IQ too quickly and wound up with deleterious genes connected to it. Sorta like the cochran hypothesis.

Also, anxiety might have had a beneficial role for a stigmatized group that was intermittently persecuted. Last one out of the village when the Cossacks come might have been the one to get killed…and I’d like to see the genes of the first Jews out of Europe before the Nazis took over. Remember the dude in Cabaret? “Oh, we’ll be fine…we’ve survived other things…”

By: Marc

Marc — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:33:12 +0000

I have inherited most of these traits myself. As a kid I was extremely shy, so much so that my primary school teacher caned me a number of times for disobediance when it seemed like I was refusing to speak, but was actually suffering from "stage fright" and couldn't speak.

You got caned for disobedience? Where/when did you grow up?

I have to admit, I always kind of hoped that my disorders (ADD, social anxiety, OCD) were associated with something positive; otherwise you just get bitter, like "Why the Hell do I have to deal with this crap?" But if that's not what the data says, well, another comforting/self-aggrandizing illusion laid to rest, I suppose. Bury it with the others. :)

By: pconroy

pconroy — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:01:17 +0000

Free Thinker/Marc,

I fall into the same pattern too. My Mom and many of her family has high or very high IQ, OCD, Anxiety disorders and Asperger symptoms.

I have inherited most of these traits myself. As a kid I was extremely shy, so much so that my primary school teacher caned me a number of times for disobediance when it seemed like I was refusing to speak, but was actually suffering from "stage fright" and couldn't speak.

My daughter too is the same way, very bright, very shy - whenever we visit her friends, she needs about 20 minutes or more to warm up, before she will talk to them.

By: SusanC

SusanC — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:27:32 +0000

Finns don’t make so much eye contact either.

A (male) Finnish friend of mine says that, back in Finland, if he manages to make eye contact with a girl, she’s likely to have sex with him. Here in England, this doesn’t work for him…

By: McGraw

McGraw — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:08:54 +0000

I would tend to doubt that Jews have low amounts of testosterone. Look at how many Jews have succeeded in finance, trading, politics, law, media, entertainment, etc….. These are fields where high testosterone folk tend to have anb advantage. I don’t we’d see much of a Jewish presence in Hollywood or Wall Street if they, as a group, had lower levels of testosterone. If anything, I’d guess Jews tend toward higher levels of testosterone (once adjusted for IQ). I could be wrong though…..

By: razib

razib — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:03:35 +0000

the testosterone-IQ assertions would seem to be extremely sensitive to population structure and what not. probably best to dump that extrapolation.

By: free thinker

free thinker — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:12:46 +0000

Jason

The association between anxiety and high intelligence in my family history is very striking, but I suspect that it is being caused by a gene which is at low frequency in the general population. If the gene for Tay-Sachs caused both anxiety and high intelligence in heterozygotes for example, you would still not expect those traits to be highly correlated at the level of the general population.

If one accepts some anecdotal evidence about my earliest acestors, the "family brain chemistry" has been present in my family for eight generations. It seems to be passed along by a single autosomal dominant gene with medium to high penetrance. It is very much more a curse than a blessing. Looking back, I realize that it would have been a good trade if I could have given away 30 points of my IQ in exchange for a happier life.

By: GMM

GMM — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:06:42 +0000

Whiskeydrinker — Where are you getting this idea that high verbal ability correlates with low IQ? Furthermore, where is the data for low testerone in high achieving Ashkenazim?

Also, according to this:
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/ashkenaz.htm
the average Ashkenazi “math iq” is ~111. In as much as testerone correlates with mathematical abililty, defense of your position would require a bit more data that directly defends your thesis.

By: Kosmo

Kosmo — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:33:05 +0000

"Jewish intelligence to be mainly verbal, and therefore presumably correlated with low testosterone?"

What the...? The first part of the above sentence is something I've seen the data for, and seems to be real, but the second part seems like a HUGE leap.

The obvious problem is that the well-documented verbal IQ bump found in Ashkenazi populations is found in both the males and females. It seems unlikely testosterone has anything to do with it.

By: whiskydrinker

whiskydrinker — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:19:35 +0000

Jason Malloy – perhaps this reflects that many tests show Jewish intelligence to be mainly verbal, and therefore presumably correlated with low testosterone? This would suggest that the most intelligent Jews will be those with least testosterone, and therefore highest anxiety and propensity for non-sociopathic mental disorders. High-testosterone Jews, meanwhile, will still be barely average on visuospatial IQ while their verbal IQ will be greatly lowered – but they’ll worry about it a lot less. In white Gentiles, however, verbal and visuospatial IQ is usually roughly even, so that the level of testosterone would have no overall correlation with general intelligence – raising it raises visuospatial intelligence at the expense of verbal and vice versa. This would mean IQ wasn’t noticably correlated with personality. Just a suggestion and I know focusing on testosterone level alone is a bit one-dimensional, but I think this could be partially correct.

By: Jason Malloy

Jason Malloy — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:26:38 +0000

I come from a nonjewish family which has a history of both abnormally high intelligence and a tendancy to anxiety disorder and obsessive/compulsive disorder--usually in the same individuals. I have always felt that there must be a connection between the two.

The GSS doesn't seem to show much of a relationship between anxiety and IQ, or much else emotionally. Here are all the positive and negative affect questions (how many days last week did you feel X).

Excited = .15
At Ease = .13
Contented = .09
Mad = .06
Sad = .06
Angry = .05
Anxious = .05
Happy = .05
Embarrassed = .02
Outraged = .01
Ashamed = -.01
Worried = -.02
Calm = -.03
Fearful = -.04
Lonely = -.05
Overjoyed = -.08
Proud = -.08
Restless = -.13
Depressed = -.13

IQ seems to be significantly related to mental health. For 'ever had a mental health problem' it's -.18. And for duration and severity of mental health problem it's -.31.

Also, while the Ns are small, it does appear to be different for Jews. The correlation between IQ and anxiety is .25 for Jews, and between mental illness and IQ is .24.

By: TGGP

TGGP — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:04:11 +0000

Finns don't make so much eye contact either.
A Finnish girl knows a Finnish boy is interested in her when he stops looking at his own shoes and starts looking at hers.

By: Marc

Marc — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:27:08 +0000

By: Tyler Cowen

Tyler Cowen — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:43:48 +0000

Finns don’t make so much eye contact either.

By: free thinker

free thinker — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:22:45 +0000

Interesting that the two diseases mentioned are those that Greg Cochran says are associated with high intelligence in Ashkenazi Jews. I come from a nonjewish family which has a history of both abnormally high intelligence and a tendancy to anxiety disorder and obsessive/compulsive disorder–usually in the same individuals. I have always felt that there must be a connection between the two. Somebody should measure the IQ’s of people who possess these variants.