Comments on: Hunter-gatherers and farmers, the continuing saga

By: pconroy

pconroy — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:30:41 +0000

Bio,

I know you've brought up this point before, and I mentioned that a pickaxe is a good tool for such things, as indeed is a mattaxe.

I too have thought about this conundrum a fair amount, and have now concluded that the most parsimonious method of forest clearing is goats.

Here's my theory:
You have a boat load of colonists from somewhere in the Eastern Mediterranean, or one of their colonies in the Western Mediterranean, like the Iberian peninsula, and they arrive at a location in NW Europe, which is sparsely populated, but heavily forested, and they wish to clear the forest and make way for arable land.
All they need do is bring some goats and release them into the wild, and then wait a while.
Goats will very effectively ring trees and kill them, but as you said, deciduous trees found in NW Europe are capable of surviving this. But what they are not capable of surviving is goats propensity to eat saplings! And that's it, goats effectively kill off new tree growth, and once the current mature trees die of old age, all the trees are gone...

By: bioIgnoramus

bioIgnoramus — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 06:02:46 +0000

But “girdling” doesn’t kill NW European deciduous trees and those trees won’t burn either. That’s the point made by the ‘leading authority’, Oliver Rackham: almost everything written on the subject is unphysical guesswork.

By: Caledonian

Caledonian — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:47:14 +0000

i was hoping readers would give me the razib-is-not-retarded benefit of the doubt Sorry, razib. :c( I thought it needed to be said anyway.
as I’ve remarked here before, one of the leading authorities on the matter points out that no-one has a clue how our ancestors cleared the forests of NW Europe. We’re not sure how our neolithic European ancestors did it, but it’s pretty obvious from the Bronze Age onwards. The Native Americans could probably have managed the same thing, despite not having metal tools, with girdling and a little fire. It’s how they generally removed the trees they wished to.

By: bioIgnoramus

bioIgnoramus — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:08:17 +0000

“the settlers, who immediately began clearcutting forests the same way they’d done it in Europe”: as I’ve remarked here before, one of the leading authorities on the matter points out that no-one has a clue how our ancestors cleared the forests of NW Europe.

By: razib

razib — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:44:46 +0000

obviously aware of diseases. i was going to add that, but i was hoping readers would give me the razib-is-not-retarded benefit of the doubt ;-) in any case, the population density was still lower in *north america* (i'm excluding mesoamerica here, though from what i recall subsistence farmers have a higher time getting the same productivity out of maize as they do out of wheat).

The Native Americans also did a much better job of preserving the ecology than the settlers, who immediately began clearcutting forests the same way they'd done it in Europe

from what i gather a lot of the 'virgin' timber was regrowth after the great dying (though some people have told me that there is dispute about extrapolating from the pollen samples).

By: Caledonian

Caledonian — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:01:03 +0000

Now, obviously there were peoples settled in these territories, but they’re average density was simply far lower than was typical in Europe. Why? Because these peoples did not have the cultural toolkit to extract as many calories per unit out of land. I thought this was more due to the last of resistance to various pathogens brought across by Europeans – IIRC, the plagues that swept through the aboriginal groups of North America are now thought to have killed somewhere around 90% of the population.

The Native Americans also did a much better job of preserving the ecology than the settlers, who immediately began clearcutting forests the same way they’d done it in Europe. Native farming techniques were quite effective in extracting calories – moreso than the European methods, I think.

By: Levi

Levi — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:33:01 +0000

When the Europeans arrived in North America and Australia they perceived the land to be “empty.” Now, obviously there were peoples settled in these territories, but they’re average density was simply far lower than was typical in Europe. Why? Because these peoples did not have the cultural toolkit to extract as many calories per unit out of land.True, but also keep in mind by the time many European settlers reached areas, diseases had already ravaged the native population.