Comments on: We are all Protestants now….

By: D. B. Light

D. B. Light — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 17:48:49 +0000

The transformation of American Catholicism in the first half of the nineteenth century created a form of devotion that bore little resemblance to traditional modes of worship in Ireland and Northern Europe. This “tridentine” Catholicism was consciously modeled on imperatives growing out of the sixteenth century Council of Trent and was promulgated by a cadre of missionaries trained in Rome specifically for the purpose of promoting anti-republican revivals. These reforms were systematically applied in American Catholicism from 1830 and by mid-century had effected a general transformation of Catholic devotion throughout the United States. So successful were these American reforms that they were applied in Ireland and Britain after 1850. The result was that by the late nineteenth century, as a result of their respective national “devotional revolutions” British, American and Irish Catholicism had converged around the tridentine reforms, but at mid-century American Catholicism, far from reflecting the folk or “gallican” traditions of Ireland and the German states or American republicanism, was actively hostile to both sets of traditions. Mid-century Catholic immigrants thus had to be assimilated not just to American culture, but to American Catholic culture, a process far more complicated than standard assimilation models would suggest.

I might refer you to the standard work on the subject, “Rome and the New Republic” published by University of Notre Dame Press in 1996.

By: Caledonian

Caledonian — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 08:09:00 +0000

Yes, Peter, but overall the Church can’t keep up with population growth. So any converts that they’re attracting can’t make up for their failure to keep children born into the faith attending.

By: Peter

Peter — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:32:19 +0000

I read a few years ago, don’t remember where, that Eastern Orthodox churches in America were getting some converts, or at least regular attendees, from outside the ethnic bases who were attracted by the services (which AIUI can be quite elaborate).

By: MC

MC — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:14:05 +0000

Will Herberg wrote about the Protestantization of other religious traditions in America in his seminal Protestant-Catholic-Jew in the 1950s.

Apparently today one could call that Protestant-Catholic-Jew-Hindu-Buddhist. But crucial to the question of what the 21st century will ultimately look like is whether one can add "Muslim" to the end of that list, or if that is the one that proves unassimilable.

By: Jaldhar

Jaldhar — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:25:09 +0000

TGGP,

I think you are right in general about “much of this Protestantization is occurring before they even get on the boat” but not in this particular case. The mandir in Queens in the article is very orthodox in its ritual and attracts the most conservative strand of immigrants. The really assimilated types would probably want to attend say, the Ramakrishna Mission branch on the Upper East Side which — how’s this for protestantization! — not only has a choir but pews, an organ, and a sermon from a “minister” in its sunday morning “service.” Though to be fair, it was founded by American admirers of Vivekananda before the era of Indian mass immigration.

By: Liesel

Liesel — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 08:43:22 +0000

The Greek immigrants in the mid/late 20th Century tended to assimilate slower to American cultural norms. They arrived at a time where there was less pressure to give up their traditions. This may partly explain the lasting power of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

I agree with Muffy that the term “Protestant” had a very different meaning from how it is colloquially used today as in this post. A lot of churches have sprung up in America that fall under the Protestant umbrella but technically shouldn’t(Pentecostals, Mormons,Shakers.) But I think most people understand it in the way this author uses it.

By: Muffy

Muffy — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 16:18:35 +0000

I think there may be an “American Christianity” that all religions in the USA may gravitate towards, but I’m not sure it’s meaningful to call it “Protestant.” The term “Protestant” is basically used to refer to all Christian movements that aren’t Catholic (or Orthodox, for that matter), even if they have little to do with each other. Sometimes Catholics and mainline Protestants agree with each other against more “Evangelical” Christians/Protestants in the USA. Apocalypse-related beliefs, e.g. pre-millennialism, are very popular among American Christians, but don’t have much of a place in either the Catholic Church or mainline Protestant Churches. Martin Luther was skeptical that Revelation even belonged in the Bible, hardly something one would guess by examining American evangelicals today. Furthermore, predestination was a cornerstone of early Protestant movements but is hardly emphasized among American Christians today. In fact, it seems like predestination is more ridiculed than otherwise. There are other examples I could give, but my overall point is that saying “we’re all Protestants” is extremely misleading because it doesn’t do justice to the differences between American Christianity and original Protestantism.

By: TGGP

TGGP — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 14:05:39 +0000

You give a hat-tip to Sepia Mutiny, but don't link directly to one of their posts.

I recall you having a post on how Buddhism (especially the "elite" forms) changed in response to Christianity, but then I believe it was Jesuits they were reacting to.

Regarding Islam and Hinduism in America, considering the selection effect on immigration (lots of professionals, for instance), is it possible that much of this Protestantization is occurring before they even get on the boat?

By: razib

razib — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:21:17 +0000

How does Islam in america fit in with this pattern?

the median religious beliefs of muslims in america are in the same of evangelical christians in their 'conservatism.' OTOH, years ago i started noticing some professional muslims (these were invariably not clerically trained) saying things sound rather protestant. e.g., about the primacy of free will, etc.

By: KJS

KJS — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 08:12:07 +0000

Interestimgly, the catholics in India seems to be adopting the ‘Hindu’ ways, by having ‘Non western’ names, using Hindu spirutial ideas like the Ashrams, lighting lamps, etc.

By: georgesdelatour

georgesdelatour — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 01:30:44 +0000

How does Islam in america fit in with this pattern?

By: razib

razib — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 21:29:36 +0000

john, yes, i think that is right. buddhism today in much of asia has been strongly influenced by a christian model of organization. ex-christian british converts were important in catalyzing the therevada revival in sri lanka in the 19th century. in singapore buddhists have also borrowed a lot from protestant models of organization.

By: John Emerson

John Emerson — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:45:39 +0000

Conversion from Chinese folk religion / Taoism to Buddhism could be a kind of Protestantization, since Buddhism is more amenable to Protestant-like theology and practice.

In China (1983) one of my Chinese techer was a reforming Buddhist with philosophical interests who rejected the conventional, liturgical, rather superstitious Buddhism of most Chinese. He could have been a kind of Protestantizer, though I didn’t know him well enough to be at all sure.

By: moldbug

moldbug — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:51:29 +0000

Haloscan apparently didn’t like my link for Puritan Origins of American Patriotism… or the rest of the comment. Ah, Haloscan.

By: Jaldhar

Jaldhar — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:34:40 +0000

What is fascinating to me is that congregational singing is not in fact an innovation in Hinduism at all atleast since c. 12th century or so. Bhajans are simple, non-ideological, emotionally-oriented call and response type songs, for the most part not in Sanskrit, which are sung by public groups with less caste exclusivity than usually found in society. Often these groups meet in mandirs and the singing has become integrated into the ritual. For North Indians particularly women like the Mrs. Tandon who was interviewed, this is in fact the dominant mode of religious expression. Yet she references Pentacostals as a model instead of her own tradition. Is this only for the white reporters benefit? Is it because she perceives the bhajan tradition as being less prestigious and reinterpreting it in terms of the socially dominant paradigm will upgrade its status?

This article shows the assimilation that is going on is of North Indian forms into a traditionalist South Indian community. In South Indian mandirs, communal singing if it occurs at all is by a specialized caste of singers not the general public and is not really a focus of the worshippers temple experience. Even this article notes that the priests and some of the other worshippers were not paying much attention to the choir. That's not very Protestant is it?

Also interesting is that this is happening in a mandir in Queens which is an area of first settlement. Wouldn't one expect assimilation to be more likely to happen in the suburbs where the upwardly mobile and second-generation live? I have recently visited mandirs in Atlanta, suburban NJ, and Pittsburgh and none of them had choirs as far as I could tell.

By: Caledonian

Caledonian — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 11:06:00 +0000

i'd like to know more about the demographics of this religion. Short version: brought over predominantly by immigrant groups from Eastern Europe, served as a social / community connector for them, generally maintained language and specific-culture practices of immigrants' homelands instead of adopting more American-friendly language, etc. Thus generally known as [Ethinicity]-Orthodox Churches.

Given the large number of children who leave the faith, there has been an attempt to establish an American-Orthodox Church, but it's been mostly unsuccessful.

On second thought, perhaps it's better evidence for your hypothesis than I'd realized, as the church's non-conversion to Protestantism-lite seems to be a primary factor in its slow withering.

By: razib

razib — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 10:40:25 +0000

Orthodox Christianity does not seem to have succumbed to your hypothesis, razib.

i'd like to know more about the demographics of this religion. i do know that antiochene orthodoxy is getting lots of converts from protestantism.

What do you think is happening in China?

people don't have a good quantitative and ethnological grasp of what's happening. christians exaggerate the numbers, communists suppress information collection. in south korea buddhism has to a great extent recreated itself to organize in a more christian manner. when that interreligious competition happens, then the american model is operative. it is operative mildly in many places, but in taiwan christianity has not grown much numerically in a generation and the 'default' religious identity remains buddhism (which is actually gaining from 'switchers' from taoism and chinese folk religion). so that's an alternative model to korea (japan is another model which has been even less organizationally effected by christianity).

By: moldbug

moldbug — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:52:36 +0000

Yup.

(For a good four-century history of American Protestantism, I highly recommend Gordon McKenna’s

By: Caledonian

Caledonian — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:22:42 +0000

Orthodox Christianity does not seem to have succumbed to your hypothesis, razib.

Admittedly, it is a minority religion. And a rather small one. But Protestantism, it’s not.

By: Bob Sykes

Bob Sykes — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:39:02 +0000

What do you think is happening in China?