Comments on: R1a1 and the peopling of Eurasia

By: daveinboca

daveinboca — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:28:44 +0000

Ah, those Kurgan groups. Am reading Cunliffe and his very interesting chapter on the Carpathian basin circa 4000YA and their chariot remains… Marija Gimbutas still has a partial case…

By: Ponto

Ponto — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:27:46 +0000

Don’t understand why you highlighted the M458 marker and the flow from East Europe to Asia. Why this obsession? Aryan is just an old fashion, and not very applicable name for a language family. I don’t know anyone, anyone who thinks, who accepts that Europeans seeded Northern India or Iran, or contributed genetically to any of those countries peoples, high or low caste, Brahman or Tribal.

Dienekes has an thing with dating methods particularly I have found with J-M267 which he wants to believe is of very recent origin, and totally due to recent foreigners to Europe from the historic Middle East namely Jews and Arabians. It is like the opposite of the “Aryan” thing of India. In this case true Europeans are R1b, R1a, and I. Anyone who is E or J or G is not authentic, especially the J people though J2 has been whitewashed and made European due to its high frequencies in guess where, Greece and Italy. J2 is just as “Middle Eastern” as J1 or even haplogroup I which originated east of the geographic Europe. Dienekes just uses the divide by three rule, the Germ Line Mutation theory, to support his views of the origins of different Europeans. It is quasi racism. Separating the Whites from the Darkies. It seems to have been proven that the R group has a Central Asian, West Siberian origin and entered Europe after the LGM. Too much effort has gone in proving beliefs like the Paleolithic continuation of Europe’s population into the modern age with little or no contribution from anywhere outside Europe. Yet every new paper seems to show that no haplogroups in Europe, even the old ones, entered Europe much before the LGM. Recent studies show a discontinuity between modern European and both Paleolithic (actually Mesolithic people living at the time of the farming introduction into Europe) and the Neolithic people who were present in Europe complete with Near Eastern plants and animals.

R1a’s entry into both Europe and South Asia probably occurred at the same time and is not auchthonous to either, and has little to do with the mythical blue eyed blond men but men of generalized Caucasoid looks. The Slavic languages are not particularly old, and it is a mistake to correlate language with genetics. The correlation if it exists is most likely coincidental.

By: razib

razib — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:19:08 +0000

*polish genes* points out that r1a1 has been found in ancient DNA in modern germany, so it’s old. also, i really mean germanic, so i’ll fix that. it’s in relatively high frequencies in scandinavia. it’s low in england, but there are signs of a east-west cline. might be the saxon + scandinavian settlements of the early medieval period (probably disproportionately male).

By: Charles Iliya Krempeaux

Charles Iliya Krempeaux — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:12:10 +0000

Razib, you said...
"In Europe the modal frequencies are among Slavic groups, with a high representation among German-speakers"

(Assuming by "German-speakers" you mean Germany....) Wonder how much of that R1a1 got put into Germany when the Russians left Germany during the Second World War?! (The story I've Been told is that there wasn't a virgin left in the country.) There was also the Germanizing of Polish children.

I'm not even sure of the magnitudes of these are, so maybe it's trivial.