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	<title>Comments on: The Movius Line represents the crossing of a demographic threshold</title>
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	<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2010/03/21/the-movius-line-represents-the-crossing-of-a-demographic-threshold-2/</link>
	<description>Genetics</description>
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		<title>By: Bayes</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2010/03/21/the-movius-line-represents-the-crossing-of-a-demographic-threshold-2/#comment-446</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bayes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=160#comment-446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ John Hawks: I&#039;m not wholly convinced by the ecological reason. Primarily because East Asia is quite large and covers a variety of ecological niches; it&#039;s not a uniform area. I suppose, really, the argument here is whether or not the ecological conditions trumps the demographic underpinnings. Also, it may not be one factor over another that explains why the patterns of handaxes east of the Movius line tend to be geographically sparse; instead, it may very well be the combination of partly ecological factors and partly the demographic limitations surrounding cultural and technological development. I think there are three important factors to consider in this particular context:

1) Was there available access to significant quantities of high-quality, fine-grained stone for tool production in these areas east of the Movius Line? Obviously, blade technology is quite dependent on fine-grained stone such as flint, chert, obsidian etc. Furthermore, did hominin populations rely on locally-sourced materials, such as wood or bamboo, for tool manufacture.

2) What are the specific functions for this stone tool technology? For instance, if the initial colonisation followed a costal route, then these technologies may have needed to adapt for the exploitation of coastal resources.

3) Lastly, there are the issues of demography and the potential role of serial founder effects as relatively small population units migrated eastward. Do we see instances where serial founder effects not only operate on the genetic features of populations, but in addition leads to a loss in the complexity and diversity of cultural and technological patterns as the result of an increasing distance from the demographic point of origin?

As for the point about those Flores hominids: I don&#039;t know enough about them to really make an informed comment. For the moment though, I&#039;d say that having a small population is not the only factor. If they had a sufficient level of density, then this may have led to stronger and more regular instances of social interconnectedness. So, as the probability of encountering increases, so does the ability to maintain certain forms of technology.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ John Hawks: I&#8217;m not wholly convinced by the ecological reason. Primarily because East Asia is quite large and covers a variety of ecological niches; it&#8217;s not a uniform area. I suppose, really, the argument here is whether or not the ecological conditions trumps the demographic underpinnings. Also, it may not be one factor over another that explains why the patterns of handaxes east of the Movius line tend to be geographically sparse; instead, it may very well be the combination of partly ecological factors and partly the demographic limitations surrounding cultural and technological development. I think there are three important factors to consider in this particular context:</p>
<p>1) Was there available access to significant quantities of high-quality, fine-grained stone for tool production in these areas east of the Movius Line? Obviously, blade technology is quite dependent on fine-grained stone such as flint, chert, obsidian etc. Furthermore, did hominin populations rely on locally-sourced materials, such as wood or bamboo, for tool manufacture.</p>
<p>2) What are the specific functions for this stone tool technology? For instance, if the initial colonisation followed a costal route, then these technologies may have needed to adapt for the exploitation of coastal resources.</p>
<p>3) Lastly, there are the issues of demography and the potential role of serial founder effects as relatively small population units migrated eastward. Do we see instances where serial founder effects not only operate on the genetic features of populations, but in addition leads to a loss in the complexity and diversity of cultural and technological patterns as the result of an increasing distance from the demographic point of origin?</p>
<p>As for the point about those Flores hominids: I don&#8217;t know enough about them to really make an informed comment. For the moment though, I&#8217;d say that having a small population is not the only factor. If they had a sufficient level of density, then this may have led to stronger and more regular instances of social interconnectedness. So, as the probability of encountering increases, so does the ability to maintain certain forms of technology.</p>
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		<title>By: German Dziebel</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2010/03/21/the-movius-line-represents-the-crossing-of-a-demographic-threshold-2/#comment-442</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[German Dziebel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=160#comment-442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the same Movioid pattern can be established for the populations of Homo sapiens sapiens. We see &quot;delays&quot; in the appearance of aspects of the modern human behavioral package in Australasia and especially in the Americas. Clovis points in North America are so much like Solutrean points in Europe, only 10K years younger. The very absence of ancient archaeological signatures in the Americas may not mean the absence of humans earlier than 13.5K years but rather low population densities and technological stagnation for a long period of time. Low effective population size in Asia and the Americas, as compared to Europe and Africa, is expressed in the reduced levels of haplotype and other measurements of diversity. At the same time, the geographic range of haplotypes is broader east of the Movius line (mtDNA haplotypes C and D, for instance, are found from India and Scandinavia to Tierra del Fuego, while Y-DNA C haplogroup is found from Australia to North America) suggesting long-term stability and lack of mutational innovations. At the same time, the levels of LINGUISTIC diversity are much higher east of the Movius line than in Africa or Europe, with America and Papua New Guinea language families encompassing 3/4 of world linguistic diversity. This again suggests great antiquity and low population size east of the Movius line, as languistic diversity shows no population-size dependency.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the same Movioid pattern can be established for the populations of Homo sapiens sapiens. We see &#8220;delays&#8221; in the appearance of aspects of the modern human behavioral package in Australasia and especially in the Americas. Clovis points in North America are so much like Solutrean points in Europe, only 10K years younger. The very absence of ancient archaeological signatures in the Americas may not mean the absence of humans earlier than 13.5K years but rather low population densities and technological stagnation for a long period of time. Low effective population size in Asia and the Americas, as compared to Europe and Africa, is expressed in the reduced levels of haplotype and other measurements of diversity. At the same time, the geographic range of haplotypes is broader east of the Movius line (mtDNA haplotypes C and D, for instance, are found from India and Scandinavia to Tierra del Fuego, while Y-DNA C haplogroup is found from Australia to North America) suggesting long-term stability and lack of mutational innovations. At the same time, the levels of LINGUISTIC diversity are much higher east of the Movius line than in Africa or Europe, with America and Papua New Guinea language families encompassing 3/4 of world linguistic diversity. This again suggests great antiquity and low population size east of the Movius line, as languistic diversity shows no population-size dependency.</p>
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		<title>By: ren</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2010/03/21/the-movius-line-represents-the-crossing-of-a-demographic-threshold-2/#comment-441</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=160#comment-441</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;What isn’t easily explained is why sites after 50,000 years ago should be susceptible to this same path-dependence — particularly since they should derive some or most of their ancestry from Africa/West Asia.&quot;
&quot;Personally, I keep coming back to ecology.&quot;

It&#039;s been said that the lack of raw materials and low quality of the material was a restraining factor on Levallois, but I guess the only progress in this field is actually dependent on findings of another field, genetics, which can at least in theory let us know which way(s) modern and prehistoric populations arrived into East Asia, either via Central Asia which seems to have Levallois or via the southern coastal route which seems to have forgotten it.

&quot;particularly since they should derive some or most of their ancestry from Africa/West Asia.&quot;
Only some? I agree that shoveled incisors are perhaps a trait &quot;Mongoloids&quot; got from erectus, but the erectus component overall should be very low based on what we know from genetics. Not one phylogenetically-distant sample of mtDNA and Y-Chromosome have been discovered yet. All fall into a sub-set of East African/Eurasian lineages. 
My theory on how the above seemingly contradictory situation can happen is this:

1. The erectus admixture must&#039;ve occurred in a very small population. 
2. The uniparental markers died out in this bottleneck but the autosomal genes remain. 
3. The shovelling trait was selected in severe ecological conditions. 
4. This &quot;Mongoloid&quot; population at some point started to expand exponentially.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What isn’t easily explained is why sites after 50,000 years ago should be susceptible to this same path-dependence — particularly since they should derive some or most of their ancestry from Africa/West Asia.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Personally, I keep coming back to ecology.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s been said that the lack of raw materials and low quality of the material was a restraining factor on Levallois, but I guess the only progress in this field is actually dependent on findings of another field, genetics, which can at least in theory let us know which way(s) modern and prehistoric populations arrived into East Asia, either via Central Asia which seems to have Levallois or via the southern coastal route which seems to have forgotten it.</p>
<p>&#8220;particularly since they should derive some or most of their ancestry from Africa/West Asia.&#8221;<br />
Only some? I agree that shoveled incisors are perhaps a trait &#8220;Mongoloids&#8221; got from erectus, but the erectus component overall should be very low based on what we know from genetics. Not one phylogenetically-distant sample of mtDNA and Y-Chromosome have been discovered yet. All fall into a sub-set of East African/Eurasian lineages.<br />
My theory on how the above seemingly contradictory situation can happen is this:</p>
<p>1. The erectus admixture must&#8217;ve occurred in a very small population.<br />
2. The uniparental markers died out in this bottleneck but the autosomal genes remain.<br />
3. The shovelling trait was selected in severe ecological conditions.<br />
4. This &#8220;Mongoloid&#8221; population at some point started to expand exponentially.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sailer</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2010/03/21/the-movius-line-represents-the-crossing-of-a-demographic-threshold-2/#comment-439</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Sailer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Mar 2010 02:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=160#comment-439</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As recently as 1965, Carleton Coon assumed the most fundamental division in humanity was along the Movius line, with East Asians off by themselves and whites and blacks more closely related to each genetically than to East Asians.

It&#039;s interesting how population genetics has moved the orthodoxy in a less politically correct direction toward the fundamental division being sub-Saharan Africans vs. Eurasians.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As recently as 1965, Carleton Coon assumed the most fundamental division in humanity was along the Movius line, with East Asians off by themselves and whites and blacks more closely related to each genetically than to East Asians.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting how population genetics has moved the orthodoxy in a less politically correct direction toward the fundamental division being sub-Saharan Africans vs. Eurasians.</p>
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		<title>By: John Hawks</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2010/03/21/the-movius-line-represents-the-crossing-of-a-demographic-threshold-2/#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Hawks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=160#comment-425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good question, I don&#039;t think anybody has a very good idea. It&#039;s probably a mistake to think of Levallois (or blades) as cases of unique invention. They are recurrently popping up, even in Lower Paleolithic contexts. If you thought about tools with a genetic analogy, the appearance of these techniques is not &quot;mutation-limited&quot; -- that is, populations didn&#039;t have to wait around for somebody to invent them. 

The question is, if there&#039;s some optimum, why don&#039;t people make the same tools everywhere? And you&#039;ve got four possible answers: 

(1) Different optima; different ecological contexts or raw material availability require different tools. 

(2) Transmission is too hard to keep going in these populations. 

(3) Path-dependence: slightly different starting points may lead to very different technical developments. 

(4) Relative neutrality: It just doesn&#039;t matter very much which tools you use. 

Path-dependence is probably the most common explanation for why Levallois is rare in China -- the idea being that you don&#039;t develop prepared cores easily if you aren&#039;t starting from a large cutting tool tradition. What isn&#039;t easily explained is why sites after 50,000 years ago should be susceptible to this same path-dependence -- particularly since they should derive some or most of their ancestry from Africa/West Asia. 

Personally, I keep coming back to ecology. For two traditions relatively late in the record and possibly synchronous (although I hesitate to assume this until a better chronology emerges), I tend to go with Binford -- they&#039;re probably doing different things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good question, I don&#8217;t think anybody has a very good idea. It&#8217;s probably a mistake to think of Levallois (or blades) as cases of unique invention. They are recurrently popping up, even in Lower Paleolithic contexts. If you thought about tools with a genetic analogy, the appearance of these techniques is not &#8220;mutation-limited&#8221; &#8212; that is, populations didn&#8217;t have to wait around for somebody to invent them. </p>
<p>The question is, if there&#8217;s some optimum, why don&#8217;t people make the same tools everywhere? And you&#8217;ve got four possible answers: </p>
<p>(1) Different optima; different ecological contexts or raw material availability require different tools. </p>
<p>(2) Transmission is too hard to keep going in these populations. </p>
<p>(3) Path-dependence: slightly different starting points may lead to very different technical developments. </p>
<p>(4) Relative neutrality: It just doesn&#8217;t matter very much which tools you use. </p>
<p>Path-dependence is probably the most common explanation for why Levallois is rare in China &#8212; the idea being that you don&#8217;t develop prepared cores easily if you aren&#8217;t starting from a large cutting tool tradition. What isn&#8217;t easily explained is why sites after 50,000 years ago should be susceptible to this same path-dependence &#8212; particularly since they should derive some or most of their ancestry from Africa/West Asia. </p>
<p>Personally, I keep coming back to ecology. For two traditions relatively late in the record and possibly synchronous (although I hesitate to assume this until a better chronology emerges), I tend to go with Binford &#8212; they&#8217;re probably doing different things.</p>
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		<title>By: ren</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2010/03/21/the-movius-line-represents-the-crossing-of-a-demographic-threshold-2/#comment-423</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 08:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=160#comment-423</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, in the comment above I meant &quot;common origin&quot; but typed &quot;control origin&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, in the comment above I meant &#8220;common origin&#8221; but typed &#8220;control origin&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: ren</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2010/03/21/the-movius-line-represents-the-crossing-of-a-demographic-threshold-2/#comment-422</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 08:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=160#comment-422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Prof. Hawks, what do you think about the contrast between Levallois (Shuidonggou) and non-Levallois (Xiachuan) cultures/blade technologies existing close by. Is this a case of control origin but lost of transmission, cultural spread of blade technology but not Levallois, or parallel adaptation, in your opinion?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof. Hawks, what do you think about the contrast between Levallois (Shuidonggou) and non-Levallois (Xiachuan) cultures/blade technologies existing close by. Is this a case of control origin but lost of transmission, cultural spread of blade technology but not Levallois, or parallel adaptation, in your opinion?</p>
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		<title>By: John Hawks</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2010/03/21/the-movius-line-represents-the-crossing-of-a-demographic-threshold-2/#comment-420</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Hawks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 01:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=160#comment-420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We covered this in my graduate seminar this week. so maybe I&#039;ll write something about it. I think in the end it falls apart on the differential equation level: the rate of introduction of bifaces is fairly high (that&#039;s why we&#039;ve found them in China and Korea, now), and they persisted at least long enough for us to have found them. So if they were locally useful they had the chance to spread, but they didn&#039;t. That argues for an ecological reason, that they just weren&#039;t useful in the East. 

Oh, and there are those Flores hominids, making tools for hundreds of thousands of years in a tiny population, and Java periodically cut off from SE Asia. Toolmaking seems like it wasn&#039;t very easy to lose.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We covered this in my graduate seminar this week. so maybe I&#8217;ll write something about it. I think in the end it falls apart on the differential equation level: the rate of introduction of bifaces is fairly high (that&#8217;s why we&#8217;ve found them in China and Korea, now), and they persisted at least long enough for us to have found them. So if they were locally useful they had the chance to spread, but they didn&#8217;t. That argues for an ecological reason, that they just weren&#8217;t useful in the East. </p>
<p>Oh, and there are those Flores hominids, making tools for hundreds of thousands of years in a tiny population, and Java periodically cut off from SE Asia. Toolmaking seems like it wasn&#8217;t very easy to lose.</p>
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