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	<title>Comments on: Income and IQ</title>
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	<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/</link>
	<description>Genetics</description>
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		<title>By: Jason Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2717</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Collins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1222#comment-2717</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The evidence would suggest that IQ is more important than socio-economic status. From Herrnstein and Murray&#039;s The Bell Curve:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The second broad implication is that parental SES is important but not decisive. In terms of this figure, a student with very well-placed parents, in the top 2 percent of the socioeconomic scale, had only a 40 percent chance of getting a college degree if he had only average intelligence. A student with parents of only average SES - lower middle class, probably without college degrees themselves - who is himself in the top 2 percent of 1Q had more than a 75 percent chance of getting a degree.

Once again, the common stereotype of the talented-but-disadvantaged- youth-denied-educational-opportunity does not seem to exist in significant numbers any longer. Only seven-tenths of 1 percent of whites in the NLSY were both &quot;prime college material&quot; (IQs of 1 15 or above) and markedly disadvantaged in their socioeconomic background (in the bottom quartile on the SES index). Among this tiny group, it is true that fewer than half (46 percent) got college degrees. Those who did not, despite having high IQs, may be seen as youths who suffered from having a disadvantaged background. But recall that this group consists of only four-tenths of 1 percent of all white youths. A category of worthy white young persons denied a college education because of circumstances surely exists to some degree, but of such small size that it does not constitute a public policy problem.

What about another stereotype, the untalented child of rich parents who gets shepherded through to a degree? Almost 5 percent of white youths had below-average 1Qs (under 100) and parents in the top quartile of socioeconomic status. Of those, only 12 percent had gotten college degrees, representing just six-tenths of 1 percent of white youths. Judging from these data, the common assertion that privileged white parents can make sure their children do well in school, no matter what, may be exaggerated.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Or this:

&lt;blockquote&gt;For example, imagine a white person born in 1961 who came from an unusually deprived socioeconomic background: parents who worked at the most menial of jobs, often unemployed, neither of whom had a high school education (a description of what it means to have a socioeconomic status index score in the 2d centile on socioeconomic class). If that person has an IQ of 100 - nothing special, just the national average - the chance of falling below a poverty-level income in 1989 was 11 percent. It is not zero, and it is not as small as the risk of poverty for someone from a less punishing environment, but in many ways this is an astonishing statement of progress. Conversely, suppose that the person comes from the 2d centile in IQ but his parents were average in socioeconomic status which means that his parents worked at skilled jobs, had at least finished high school, and had an average income. Despite coming from that solid background, his odds of being in poverty are 26 percent, more than twice as great as the odds facing the person from a deprived home but with average intelligence.

In sum: Low intelligence means a comparatively high risk of poverty. If a white child of the next generation could be given a choice between being disadvantaged in socioeconomic status or disadvantaged in intelligence, there is no question about the right choice.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The evidence would suggest that IQ is more important than socio-economic status. From Herrnstein and Murray&#8217;s The Bell Curve:</p>
<blockquote><p>The second broad implication is that parental SES is important but not decisive. In terms of this figure, a student with very well-placed parents, in the top 2 percent of the socioeconomic scale, had only a 40 percent chance of getting a college degree if he had only average intelligence. A student with parents of only average SES &#8211; lower middle class, probably without college degrees themselves &#8211; who is himself in the top 2 percent of 1Q had more than a 75 percent chance of getting a degree.</p>
<p>Once again, the common stereotype of the talented-but-disadvantaged- youth-denied-educational-opportunity does not seem to exist in significant numbers any longer. Only seven-tenths of 1 percent of whites in the NLSY were both &#8220;prime college material&#8221; (IQs of 1 15 or above) and markedly disadvantaged in their socioeconomic background (in the bottom quartile on the SES index). Among this tiny group, it is true that fewer than half (46 percent) got college degrees. Those who did not, despite having high IQs, may be seen as youths who suffered from having a disadvantaged background. But recall that this group consists of only four-tenths of 1 percent of all white youths. A category of worthy white young persons denied a college education because of circumstances surely exists to some degree, but of such small size that it does not constitute a public policy problem.</p>
<p>What about another stereotype, the untalented child of rich parents who gets shepherded through to a degree? Almost 5 percent of white youths had below-average 1Qs (under 100) and parents in the top quartile of socioeconomic status. Of those, only 12 percent had gotten college degrees, representing just six-tenths of 1 percent of white youths. Judging from these data, the common assertion that privileged white parents can make sure their children do well in school, no matter what, may be exaggerated.</p></blockquote>
<p>Or this:</p>
<blockquote><p>For example, imagine a white person born in 1961 who came from an unusually deprived socioeconomic background: parents who worked at the most menial of jobs, often unemployed, neither of whom had a high school education (a description of what it means to have a socioeconomic status index score in the 2d centile on socioeconomic class). If that person has an IQ of 100 &#8211; nothing special, just the national average &#8211; the chance of falling below a poverty-level income in 1989 was 11 percent. It is not zero, and it is not as small as the risk of poverty for someone from a less punishing environment, but in many ways this is an astonishing statement of progress. Conversely, suppose that the person comes from the 2d centile in IQ but his parents were average in socioeconomic status which means that his parents worked at skilled jobs, had at least finished high school, and had an average income. Despite coming from that solid background, his odds of being in poverty are 26 percent, more than twice as great as the odds facing the person from a deprived home but with average intelligence.</p>
<p>In sum: Low intelligence means a comparatively high risk of poverty. If a white child of the next generation could be given a choice between being disadvantaged in socioeconomic status or disadvantaged in intelligence, there is no question about the right choice.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Stephen Edkins</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2716</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen Edkins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2011 09:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1222#comment-2716</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Surely the main determinant of my children&#039;s INCOME is my WEALTH. This has been especially true over the last 50 years because nominal interest rates have been unprecedentedly high.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely the main determinant of my children&#8217;s INCOME is my WEALTH. This has been especially true over the last 50 years because nominal interest rates have been unprecedentedly high.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2582</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TGGP]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 02:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1222#comment-2582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brad Delong &lt;a href=&quot;http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/04/bob-herbert-on-charles-murrays-aei-quality-research.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;quotes&lt;/a&gt; Bob Herbert saying that in Northern Ireland, Catholics had IQs about 15 points lower than Protestants. Is that accurate?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad Delong <a href="http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/04/bob-herbert-on-charles-murrays-aei-quality-research.html" rel="nofollow">quotes</a> Bob Herbert saying that in Northern Ireland, Catholics had IQs about 15 points lower than Protestants. Is that accurate?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2581</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Collins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 07:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1222#comment-2581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Nador, thanks for your comment. I agree that correlation is not transitive, but I consider that the assumption of transitivity is reasonable for the ballpark purpose of the exercise.

On your second point, the estimate in step 3 needs to be adjusted by step 2 as there are two parents. Step 2 is whole genotype correlation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Nador, thanks for your comment. I agree that correlation is not transitive, but I consider that the assumption of transitivity is reasonable for the ballpark purpose of the exercise.</p>
<p>On your second point, the estimate in step 3 needs to be adjusted by step 2 as there are two parents. Step 2 is whole genotype correlation.</p>
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		<title>By: Nador</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2578</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nador]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Apr 2011 21:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1222#comment-2578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is the justification for multiplying correlations? I mean, if A correlates with B which correlates with C, that does not necessarily imply that A correlates with C. Simply: correlation is not transitive. Why do you or the authors assume, that the result of such 3 transitional (?) steps will lead to any meaningful results? Besides, what is the purpose of using an estimate for genetic correlation in step 2 if in step 3 the parent-child IQ correlation due to genetic inheritance is used? Step 2 seems unnecessary. Or maybe step 3 should have been IQ and underlying genotype correlation, but then one would need a similar step between parent IQ and parent genotype [step 2.5].]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the justification for multiplying correlations? I mean, if A correlates with B which correlates with C, that does not necessarily imply that A correlates with C. Simply: correlation is not transitive. Why do you or the authors assume, that the result of such 3 transitional (?) steps will lead to any meaningful results? Besides, what is the purpose of using an estimate for genetic correlation in step 2 if in step 3 the parent-child IQ correlation due to genetic inheritance is used? Step 2 seems unnecessary. Or maybe step 3 should have been IQ and underlying genotype correlation, but then one would need a similar step between parent IQ and parent genotype [step 2.5].</p>
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		<title>By: ben g</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2567</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ben g]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2011 03:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1222#comment-2567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By the way, thanks for making this post.  GNXP is the only intelligent blog for discussing behavior genetics and all its
implications.  Lately it hasn&#039;t had much on that particular subject so thanks for helping keep things rolling!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, thanks for making this post.  GNXP is the only intelligent blog for discussing behavior genetics and all its<br />
implications.  Lately it hasn&#8217;t had much on that particular subject so thanks for helping keep things rolling!</p>
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		<title>By: ben g</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ben g]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2011 03:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1222#comment-2566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jason,

Even if heritability stayed the same from one generation, that wouldn&#039;t necessarily indicate intergenerational genetic transmission.  That&#039;s because equally heritable but different causes may underly the trait for each generation.

I would guess that there are some traits like g, work ethic, etc. which are valuable and transmitted from one generation to the next.  But with a changing economy/society I would also guess that the genes/environments which matter also change.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>Even if heritability stayed the same from one generation, that wouldn&#8217;t necessarily indicate intergenerational genetic transmission.  That&#8217;s because equally heritable but different causes may underly the trait for each generation.</p>
<p>I would guess that there are some traits like g, work ethic, etc. which are valuable and transmitted from one generation to the next.  But with a changing economy/society I would also guess that the genes/environments which matter also change.</p>
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		<title>By: albatross</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2564</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[albatross]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Wouldn&#039;t health be a very likely place to look for highly heritable income-affecting things?  Chronic physical or mental health problems can have a huge impact on how much money you make.

I wonder how big an impact that might have.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t health be a very likely place to look for highly heritable income-affecting things?  Chronic physical or mental health problems can have a huge impact on how much money you make.</p>
<p>I wonder how big an impact that might have.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2558</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Collins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1222#comment-2558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ben g, to call it an error is to overstate the case. Obviously, heritability of a trait can change significantly from generation to generation, which would make any intergenerational calculations an error. But heritability can also remain relatively consistent (making certain assumptions about the environment and selection pressures) and can be useful in examining intergenerational change, as is often done in quantitative genetics.

Bowles and Gintis&#039;s implicit assumption of a constant environment and heritability is fair given the purpose of their paper (and I tend to think it is also a broadly accurate assumption). Over the time covered by the generations of interest, there has been a relatively consistent correlation between income and IQ and parent and child IQ, and consistently high heritability of IQ in the populations of interest. As the paper shows, the specific heritability calculations are not the most significant factor in obtaining the result - it is the magnitude of the income-IQ correlation (or income-other genetic factors correlation) that tends to limit the degree to which IQ and genetic factors can be used to explain the strong correlation between parent and child income.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ben g, to call it an error is to overstate the case. Obviously, heritability of a trait can change significantly from generation to generation, which would make any intergenerational calculations an error. But heritability can also remain relatively consistent (making certain assumptions about the environment and selection pressures) and can be useful in examining intergenerational change, as is often done in quantitative genetics.</p>
<p>Bowles and Gintis&#8217;s implicit assumption of a constant environment and heritability is fair given the purpose of their paper (and I tend to think it is also a broadly accurate assumption). Over the time covered by the generations of interest, there has been a relatively consistent correlation between income and IQ and parent and child IQ, and consistently high heritability of IQ in the populations of interest. As the paper shows, the specific heritability calculations are not the most significant factor in obtaining the result &#8211; it is the magnitude of the income-IQ correlation (or income-other genetic factors correlation) that tends to limit the degree to which IQ and genetic factors can be used to explain the strong correlation between parent and child income.</p>
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		<title>By: ben g</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/03/28/income-and-iq/#comment-2556</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ben g]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1222#comment-2556</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but isn&#039;t it an error to make claims about the intergenerational transmission based on heritability quotients? 

After all, a trait may be highly heritable but not pass on from one generation to the next. This is because the relevant genes and environments may differ from one generation to the next.

So I understand how we can make claims about genes and income within a generation, but by what logic can you extend this to intergenerational transmission?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but isn&#8217;t it an error to make claims about the intergenerational transmission based on heritability quotients? </p>
<p>After all, a trait may be highly heritable but not pass on from one generation to the next. This is because the relevant genes and environments may differ from one generation to the next.</p>
<p>So I understand how we can make claims about genes and income within a generation, but by what logic can you extend this to intergenerational transmission?</p>
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