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	<title>Comments on: Where do morals come from?</title>
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	<description>Genetics</description>
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		<title>By: kjmtchl</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/06/13/where-do-morals-come-from/#comment-2730</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kjmtchl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1343#comment-2730</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The argument is that the parameters come from us - they do not exist without us.  It is not wrong to kill someone in an abstract sense, independent of human society.  This is not a truth that existed that was discovered by or revealed to humans.  It is an evolutionarily optimal strategy within human societies and one which has been codified by cultural structures.  It is not wrong because God says it is wrong.  And it is not wrong because that simply is a philosophical truth that can be deduced logically.  

I think those who believe in an objective morality make their choices the same way as those who do not.  I just think they are mistaken about the existence of objective moral truths (except in the sense of being something that society agrees on - but that is different from how I am using the term, to mean having an abstract existence separate from human culture and society).  

In the end, there are many moral choices that are quite obviously optimal, regardless of your source of reasoning.  But if someone bases their moral judgments on what it says in a sacred text, then I would say that is unreasonable, especially as many of the proscriptions within such texts do not appear to be particularly moral to most people now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The argument is that the parameters come from us &#8211; they do not exist without us.  It is not wrong to kill someone in an abstract sense, independent of human society.  This is not a truth that existed that was discovered by or revealed to humans.  It is an evolutionarily optimal strategy within human societies and one which has been codified by cultural structures.  It is not wrong because God says it is wrong.  And it is not wrong because that simply is a philosophical truth that can be deduced logically.  </p>
<p>I think those who believe in an objective morality make their choices the same way as those who do not.  I just think they are mistaken about the existence of objective moral truths (except in the sense of being something that society agrees on &#8211; but that is different from how I am using the term, to mean having an abstract existence separate from human culture and society).  </p>
<p>In the end, there are many moral choices that are quite obviously optimal, regardless of your source of reasoning.  But if someone bases their moral judgments on what it says in a sacred text, then I would say that is unreasonable, especially as many of the proscriptions within such texts do not appear to be particularly moral to most people now.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Gress</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/06/13/where-do-morals-come-from/#comment-2729</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Gress]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1343#comment-2729</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, kjmtchi. I don&#039;t really follow your reasoning. You say &quot;morality is about making optimal choices&quot;, but then end the sentence by saying it&#039;s &quot;not about discovering the &#039;fact&#039; of which choice is correct.&quot; To me that is a contradiction. Is the optimal choice not the correct choice? How do you think those who believe in an objective morality make their choices? Isn&#039;t it also about finding the optimal choices, taking into consideration different parameters? What makes your parameters reasonable and their parameters unreasonable?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, kjmtchi. I don&#8217;t really follow your reasoning. You say &#8220;morality is about making optimal choices&#8221;, but then end the sentence by saying it&#8217;s &#8220;not about discovering the &#8216;fact&#8217; of which choice is correct.&#8221; To me that is a contradiction. Is the optimal choice not the correct choice? How do you think those who believe in an objective morality make their choices? Isn&#8217;t it also about finding the optimal choices, taking into consideration different parameters? What makes your parameters reasonable and their parameters unreasonable?</p>
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		<title>By: kjmtchl</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/06/13/where-do-morals-come-from/#comment-2728</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kjmtchl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 12:49:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1343#comment-2728</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jonathan, thanks for your comment.  The arguments I make above and that Churchland makes in her book do not disprove the existence of abstract moral truths.  They simply present a plausible, coherent and parsimonious scientific framework that explains how a moral sensibility could have arisen due to the evolutionary pressures associated with our complex social structure.  In light of that framework, there is no need to invoke the idea that moral truths exist somewhere in an abstract and objective sense, with all the philosophical complications that entails.  

That does not mean we are a slave to our evolutionarily-programmed imperatives and that all apparently moral choices are simply the expression of those subconscious constraints (like, &quot;care for your young&quot; or &quot;don&#039;t do things that will get you socially ostracised&quot;).  The cerebral cortex allows us to transcend the drives of evolution.  Because we have the capacity for abstract thought, we can think about morality at a remove from biological drives and consider whether we can come up with societal rules that might be better - i.e., improve the well-being of more people - than the ones we come programmed with.  Even if we do that, however, these will still be pragmatically derived rules or guidelines based on our consideration of the factors that will best enhance fairness, societal stability, prosperity, etc.  

None of those will be a &quot;truth&quot; waiting to be discovered.  The problem with that idea is that you then have to say where they come from - if it&#039;s from a God, then you are left with the problem posed by Socrates: &quot;Are things good because God says they are?&quot; (That seems a bit open to the whims and caprices of the deity, especially if you look at some of the rather bizarre proscriptions associated with various religions).  &quot;Or does God say they are good because they ARE good?&quot;  If so, that still leaves the question of how they are defined as good.

Morality is about making optimal choices, taking many different parameters into consideration, not about discovering the &quot;fact&quot; of which choice is correct.  Your analogy with discerning truth from falsehood (I presume in others&#039; statements) thus breaks down because in that case there is a truth to be discerned.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan, thanks for your comment.  The arguments I make above and that Churchland makes in her book do not disprove the existence of abstract moral truths.  They simply present a plausible, coherent and parsimonious scientific framework that explains how a moral sensibility could have arisen due to the evolutionary pressures associated with our complex social structure.  In light of that framework, there is no need to invoke the idea that moral truths exist somewhere in an abstract and objective sense, with all the philosophical complications that entails.  </p>
<p>That does not mean we are a slave to our evolutionarily-programmed imperatives and that all apparently moral choices are simply the expression of those subconscious constraints (like, &#8220;care for your young&#8221; or &#8220;don&#8217;t do things that will get you socially ostracised&#8221;).  The cerebral cortex allows us to transcend the drives of evolution.  Because we have the capacity for abstract thought, we can think about morality at a remove from biological drives and consider whether we can come up with societal rules that might be better &#8211; i.e., improve the well-being of more people &#8211; than the ones we come programmed with.  Even if we do that, however, these will still be pragmatically derived rules or guidelines based on our consideration of the factors that will best enhance fairness, societal stability, prosperity, etc.  </p>
<p>None of those will be a &#8220;truth&#8221; waiting to be discovered.  The problem with that idea is that you then have to say where they come from &#8211; if it&#8217;s from a God, then you are left with the problem posed by Socrates: &#8220;Are things good because God says they are?&#8221; (That seems a bit open to the whims and caprices of the deity, especially if you look at some of the rather bizarre proscriptions associated with various religions).  &#8220;Or does God say they are good because they ARE good?&#8221;  If so, that still leaves the question of how they are defined as good.</p>
<p>Morality is about making optimal choices, taking many different parameters into consideration, not about discovering the &#8220;fact&#8221; of which choice is correct.  Your analogy with discerning truth from falsehood (I presume in others&#8217; statements) thus breaks down because in that case there is a truth to be discerned.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Gress</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/06/13/where-do-morals-come-from/#comment-2726</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Gress]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2011 12:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1343#comment-2726</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I completely fail to see how the evolution of our sense of morality (assuming it is evolved) disproves the existence of absolute objective morality. That&#039;s equivalent to saying that because we are evolved to discern truth from falsehood, there is no such thing as objective truth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely fail to see how the evolution of our sense of morality (assuming it is evolved) disproves the existence of absolute objective morality. That&#8217;s equivalent to saying that because we are evolved to discern truth from falsehood, there is no such thing as objective truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Lea</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/06/13/where-do-morals-come-from/#comment-2664</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Luke Lea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2011 20:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1343#comment-2664</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nicely written! 

&quot;Love thy neighbor as thy self&quot; came to mind while reading this sentence: &quot;Moral behaviour arose in humans as an extension of the biological systems involved in recognition and care of mates and offspring.&quot;

Also, concerning the &quot;universality&quot; of (certain) moral values: the ideal of an international order based on reason and justice in place of force and fraud makes sense in the nuclear age, a matter of collective, enlightened self-interest.  Or at least it could be seen that way.  The Hebraic idea of God was originally conceived in those terms (minus nuclear weapons, but as a matter of enlightened self-interest) at least by my close reading of the Patriarchal narratives in Genesis (not the Mosaic period later).  The early Hebrews were a small, weak  trading people who depended on their reputation for honesty and fair-dealing to survive in a matrix of powerful city-states among whom they lived and moved and &quot;had their being.&quot; 

The idea of a just God who would protect the weak was later taken up by the masses of ordinary peasants and craftsmen as a matter of (perhaps unenlightened) self-interest.  At least this is a possible reading.

But again, that was a great piece of synthesis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicely written! </p>
<p>&#8220;Love thy neighbor as thy self&#8221; came to mind while reading this sentence: &#8220;Moral behaviour arose in humans as an extension of the biological systems involved in recognition and care of mates and offspring.&#8221;</p>
<p>Also, concerning the &#8220;universality&#8221; of (certain) moral values: the ideal of an international order based on reason and justice in place of force and fraud makes sense in the nuclear age, a matter of collective, enlightened self-interest.  Or at least it could be seen that way.  The Hebraic idea of God was originally conceived in those terms (minus nuclear weapons, but as a matter of enlightened self-interest) at least by my close reading of the Patriarchal narratives in Genesis (not the Mosaic period later).  The early Hebrews were a small, weak  trading people who depended on their reputation for honesty and fair-dealing to survive in a matrix of powerful city-states among whom they lived and moved and &#8220;had their being.&#8221; </p>
<p>The idea of a just God who would protect the weak was later taken up by the masses of ordinary peasants and craftsmen as a matter of (perhaps unenlightened) self-interest.  At least this is a possible reading.</p>
<p>But again, that was a great piece of synthesis.</p>
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		<title>By: kjmtchl</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/06/13/where-do-morals-come-from/#comment-2662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kjmtchl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2011 07:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1343#comment-2662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comment Richard.  I actually was attempting to say exactly what you just said but may have over-emphasised the culture-dependent differences.  As you say, these are probably more superficial and overlaid on strong constraining principles that are hard-wired in the brain&#039;s circuitry, both for morals and for language.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment Richard.  I actually was attempting to say exactly what you just said but may have over-emphasised the culture-dependent differences.  As you say, these are probably more superficial and overlaid on strong constraining principles that are hard-wired in the brain&#8217;s circuitry, both for morals and for language.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Sharpe</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/06/13/where-do-morals-come-from/#comment-2661</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Sharpe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jun 2011 03:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1343#comment-2661</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The extent to which language is culturally defined seems overstated, in the sense that yes, the phonology and the specific syllables differ by language groups, but there is a strong underlying similarity, in my mind, between all human languages. Eg, they all have grammar and use either SVO, SOV, VSO, etc, and in some cases different languages will use two grammatical styles. So, it seems that only superficial (for some definition of superficial) details differ, and babies can learn pretty much any language. This, in my mind, argues that we are more than just primed to learn language and that we are tuned to the small number of alternatives, and that there is extensive hardware support.

Similarly, I would think that the &#039;moral&#039; problems we face are similar from culture to culture. Betrayal of friends and relatives is the same in any culture. It would seem to me that the differences will be along the lines of differences between groups that have spent a longer time under selection for very large and complex societies (eg, China over the last 4,000 years) and those that have spent much of those same 4,000 years in small-scale cultures, as well as between males and females, where the problems have, until very recently, been very different, it seems to me. However, I would expect that the base &#039;moral&#039; hardware is the same among all human groups with some groups elaborating on this base under different selection pressures.

It seems that perhaps I should read the book because, notwithstanding my comments, much of what you have said Churchland says sounds eminently sensible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The extent to which language is culturally defined seems overstated, in the sense that yes, the phonology and the specific syllables differ by language groups, but there is a strong underlying similarity, in my mind, between all human languages. Eg, they all have grammar and use either SVO, SOV, VSO, etc, and in some cases different languages will use two grammatical styles. So, it seems that only superficial (for some definition of superficial) details differ, and babies can learn pretty much any language. This, in my mind, argues that we are more than just primed to learn language and that we are tuned to the small number of alternatives, and that there is extensive hardware support.</p>
<p>Similarly, I would think that the &#8216;moral&#8217; problems we face are similar from culture to culture. Betrayal of friends and relatives is the same in any culture. It would seem to me that the differences will be along the lines of differences between groups that have spent a longer time under selection for very large and complex societies (eg, China over the last 4,000 years) and those that have spent much of those same 4,000 years in small-scale cultures, as well as between males and females, where the problems have, until very recently, been very different, it seems to me. However, I would expect that the base &#8216;moral&#8217; hardware is the same among all human groups with some groups elaborating on this base under different selection pressures.</p>
<p>It seems that perhaps I should read the book because, notwithstanding my comments, much of what you have said Churchland says sounds eminently sensible.</p>
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		<title>By: kjmtchl</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/06/13/where-do-morals-come-from/#comment-2659</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kjmtchl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 07:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1343#comment-2659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[She does not go into details on that specific topic, but the general question of the kinds of selective forces that might drive apparently altruistic behaviour arises. My own feeling is the game-theoretic models favoured by economists are under-parameterised and too focused on short term outcomes to be truly informative when discussing the kinds of social pressures and imperatives that might have favoured the emergence of &quot;moral&quot; behaviour over evolutionary timescales.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She does not go into details on that specific topic, but the general question of the kinds of selective forces that might drive apparently altruistic behaviour arises. My own feeling is the game-theoretic models favoured by economists are under-parameterised and too focused on short term outcomes to be truly informative when discussing the kinds of social pressures and imperatives that might have favoured the emergence of &#8220;moral&#8221; behaviour over evolutionary timescales.</p>
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		<title>By: bob sykes</title>
		<link>http://www.gnxp.com/new/2011/06/13/where-do-morals-come-from/#comment-2658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bob sykes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jun 2011 11:34:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnxp.com/wp/?p=1343#comment-2658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Does she address the game theoretic analysis of egoism vs. altruism?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does she address the game theoretic analysis of egoism vs. altruism?</p>
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