Posts with Comments by Number Cruncher

Interracial marriage and Asian Americans

  • For those who are really interested in what happens when there are high levels of racial mixing, it is worthwhile to look at the data for UK, Canada and Australia where immigration have drastically changed the face of the countries in the last 30 years. 
     
    The data will have to be corrected by the factors listed here, and some other ones like generational effects. 
     
    Without seeing the data, if I were to bet, I would say that once the data is normalized, the 'excess' of 'Asian' males disappears pretty quickly.
  • Here is an interesting aside to Indians who move abroad and abandon their "brides" or "spouses". Is it not reasonable to assume that at least some Indians living abroad in places like the US have family back home --- whether they acknowledge it or not to census takers? 
     
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/22/AR2008022203178_pf.html 
     
    "With an estimated 30,000 brides being abandoned every year, usually by husbands living abroad, India's Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs also recommends that families hire private detectives to vet suitors and avoid being conned into giving away dowries, which are officially outlawed here but are still common among the wealthy. The ministry estimates that hundreds of thousands of brides are lied to or misled each year."
  • Well, Lucy Liu can be attributed to Hollywood's sense of quota. 
     
    What is fascinating is how few Bollywood and Chinese actresses / actors have made a big name internationally outside of their home markets. Some of this can be attributed to the power and capabilities of the Western marketing machine, but not all. 
     
    Another way to look at the 'ugly white' spouse is that there is a well documented phenomena where Chinese / Oriental women (and men) shows the signs of age at different paces / rates. Baldness is far less common, and grey hair often do not show until age 50 for Asian males, Asian (Oriental, not Indian) females tend to age slower until about 45, whereas white European females tend to show that level of aging (fatter figure, thinner and greyer hair, wrinkles in face, bulging belly, flabby skin, etc.) by 35, and you have another phenomena, which is Asian orientals generally look younger, fitter and trimmer even after a few kids at age 45. So the part of the mating game based on looks goes in an Asian male's favor over time (age 30 to 40). 
     
    Compound this with the fact that the average Asian Oriental in America (broadly speaking) is thinner and smaller frame to begin with because migrants to the US have been overwhelmingly dominated by people from areas of Asia with shorter people, (true in the southern Chinese and Japanese, not true for Korean, etc.) and you run into another well documented phenomena with preferences for mates. 
     
    Regardless of race, females will go for a male that is at least the same size or larger. The need for a larger male is well documented across species where competition in mating involves males fighting each other for the 'prize'., which favored the bigger, physically stronger male. Mind you, a corollary of that rule might be that it favors the smarter male since much of the fight now is not physical, but intellectual! 
     
    There is a mismatch in the US between Oriental males originating from areas of Asia that are smaller and shorter and white females who are on average, taller and fatter because they originated from places with larger frames (Northern Europe, etc.) 
     
    So a bit of inherent negative selection goes on based on physical attributes. This is not a racial phenomena --- you rarely see a 6ft+ woman married to a 5'5" male of any race. So to be fair, the data would need to be corrected to remove this kind of non-racial bias based on size and body shape, and also of the inherent competitive advantages / disadvantages caused by different rates of visible aging across different races. 
     
    As for the perception that Asian males have to marry 'fat and ugly' white women, oh, well, how much of that is true, how much is blunt, prejudice based on annoyance at another race 'stealing' a good man or woman, I don't know. A good bit of that can be attributed to the fact that White Europeans of both sexe
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  • The $250k is number thrown up from a few speed dating trials, where people are trying to make relatively quick decisions.  
     
    However, most mating decisions, even for the President of France, take more than the 3 to 8 minutes typical of speed dating organizations.  
     
    The data tells you very little about more enduring mate choices.  
     
    What is missing / absent is speed dating data from other countries --- then it makes for real interesting compares.
  • http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_8293975 
     
     
    Illegal emigres defy the image 
    FASTEST GROWING SOURCE? IT'S INDIA 
    By Mike Swift 
    Mercury News 
    Article Launched: 02/18/2008 01:30:47 AM PST 
     
     
     
    The Bay Area has a piece of the nation's fastest growing group of illegal immigrants. But don't assume you know who they are. 
     
    Turning stereotypes on their head, a recent federal analysis of unauthorized immigration says the most rapidly growing source of illegal immigration is India - the same country whose engineers and programmers help power Google and other Silicon Valley companies, whose doctors heal the Bay Area's sick, and whose entrepreneurs and venture capitalists have become a force on both sides of the international date line. 
     
    The U.S. Department of Homeland Security estimates that there are 270,000 unauthorized Indian natives in the United States - a 125 percent jump since 2000, the largest percentage increase of any nation with more than 100,000 illegal immigrants in the United States.
  • Ahhhh but historically, if you wait long enough, there are things like amnesties and immigration lotteries, or people who have been living together for quite a while (kids and all) finally decide to take the plunge and go legal.... Many are never legalized, so to speak, and just stay underground. 
     
    That is especially easy to do if you are female and a stay at home mom --- until the 9/11 crackdowns, illegals like that had little difficulty getting a drivers license, ID, and all the other things. 
     
    FYI, the fastest growing category of illegal immigrants are from India, who typically arrive here legally on a short duration visa like a H visa, and then overstay the visa. These illegals are overwhelmingly male except in select occupational categories like Nursing.  
     
    If these people are counted in the 'mix' by the census, you can be rest assured that it skews the mix toward a male surplus.
  • Don't call it 'mail order', call it spouse from abroad (which properly would include persons who come to the US for one reason or another (from students to illegal immigrants and ended up staying in USA through either marriage or other means --- which include getting a job that gives them legal status beside via the marriage route.) and you have quite a larger number than 1/2 of 1% of all marriages. 
     
    The illegals in country are known to be quite a bit larger. I am not knowledgeable enough as to whether what is referred to as 'visas by marriage' would include those who arrived (legal or not) in USA, and then get married and get an 'adjustment of status' to permanent residence status. Add all these figures up... and they add up. 
     
    On that subject, 1/2 of 1% of all marriages on an annual basis do add up cumulatively. Furthermore, the number of marriages is much larger than the raw number of persons because of the persistence and prevalence of multiple (serial and the occasional parallel) marriages. So detune the number somehow to bring it back in line with the population... and again, you get a different picture. 
     
    The point is, I really think the idea of 'Asians' losing out is a statistical oddity that may have a lot less ommph to it once it is subject to real detailed analysis of the numbers.
  • The breakdown of "Asian" into subgroups is a very good start to getting some facts into this debate. 
     
    Let me throw a few casual observations here to interpret the numbers: 
     
    1. Asian Indians 
     
    That is a 'catch all' category that include people of huge differences not only in nationality, caste (for Hindus and Muslims that converted)... etc. e.g. is this where an Indonesian would fit? 
     
    Having said that, male 'Indians' often import their spouse from 'back home' that are properly matched in terms of social standing, wealth, a good dowry, and other things that a 'non-resident Indian' professional can command. So it can be argued from the perspective of an Asian Indian woman brought up / born in the USA, there is a shortage of eligible Indian males --- so they 'outmarry'.  
     
    While this phenomena affects almost all 'Asian' males who have a large pool of potential spouses to draw on from their home country, the Indian phenomena is particularly because the selection of spouses is so bisected by the need to not marry out of faith and caste PLUS get a good dowry. 
     
    2. Chinese 
     
    With Chinese, caste is not an issue (mostly), but class, social standing, rank, etc. are. Furthermore, a lot of 1st generation Chinese males may show up as 'single' on the census here, but are in fact, 'married' and have spouses (plural) and children back home. So the data is skewed because it doesn't ask the obvious question: do you have a concubine back home? 
     
    If you control for, a) generational effects (i.e. only count genuine ABCs (American Born Chinese), and also for socio-economic standing, you will find that the intermarriage rate is actually quite comparable for both males and females. There is a certain myth to the Asian male that keeps losing the competion.... 
     
    Another factor that skews the number in the last 20 years is the large importation of Chinese women to the US as spouses of non-Chinese males--- via dating / marriage agencies that again, skew the numbers. Rarely are husbands imported even by Chinese women --- comes from the tendency of women to want to marry UP, not down. 
     
    3. Fillpinos 
     
    This data is totally skewed by the large numbers of Filipino women that have been imported as spouses by non-Asians (mostly white), and also spouses of serviceman --- courtesy of the long term US presence in the Philippines. 
     
    Drop those two categories out of the equation, and how does the number look? 
     
    4. Japanese 
     
    This data is perhaps the most interesting --- large scale migration of Japanese ceased early in the 20th century, and the importation of Japanese spouses slowed to a trickle by the 1960s.  
     
    What is fascinating is the 'out marriage' rate is strikingly similar between males and females and the slight diff
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