Posts with Comments by Richard
It’s hard out there being a non-Indo-European speaker in Europe
The ugric contribution to the hungarian gene pool is probably around 5%, so it is not likely due to deep common ancestry (the lack of such between finland and hungary is evident in recent studies where both cluster with nearby regions).
The suicide-stuff is more like a cultural thing, not a genetic. I have a hard time conjure that the suicides would continue if Finns as population would be adopted to to let say Russia.
I just paid a visit to the Swedish coastal town of Ekenäs at the Southern archipelago of Finland. The town is around 80% Swedish-speaking. I noticed that the few Finnish-speakers there were systematically whispering to each other in public. At first I thought it was an individual phenomenom, but it was persistent. The Finland-Swedes spoke in average, loud European voice, whereas the Finns were considerably quiet. I couldn't help thinking it as phenomenom which could be explained by the low self-condidence of Finns, and the fact that Swedish has a higher social prestige in the country.
My personal hyothesis is that Finns by character are closer to Inuits than they are to their adjacent Finland-Swedes. The low self-confidence behind the suicides is also peculiar to Inuits. The hypothesis is receiving some support by Oxford-graduated antropologist, Edward Dutton, who comes up with a new book in september, "the Finnuit".
"Expat life in Finlabd, artic exploration sheds light on Finland"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/4205519/Expat-life-in-Finland-Arctic-exploration-sheds-light-on-Finland.html
The suicide-stuff is more like a cultural thing, not a genetic. I have a hard time conjure that the suicides would continue if Finns as population would be adopted to to let say Russia.
I just paid a visit to the Swedish coastal town of Ekenäs at the Southern archipelago of Finland. The town is around 80% Swedish-speaking. I noticed that the few Finnish-speakers there were systematically whispering to each other in public. At first I thought it was an individual phenomenom, but it was persistent. The Finland-Swedes spoke in average, loud European voice, whereas the Finns were considerably quiet. I couldn't help thinking it as phenomenom which could be explained by the low self-condidence of Finns, and the fact that Swedish has a higher social prestige in the country.
My personal hyothesis is that Finns by character are closer to Inuits than they are to their adjacent Finland-Swedes. The low self-confidence behind the suicides is also peculiar to Inuits. The hypothesis is receiving some support by Oxford-graduated antropologist, Edward Dutton, who comes up with a new book in september, "the Finnuit".
"Expat life in Finlabd, artic exploration sheds light on Finland"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/4205519/Expat-life-in-Finland-Arctic-exploration-sheds-light-on-Finland.html
What you already knew about Finns
JL,
JL you are correct that Folktinget is most likely the originator of the "Swedish-speaking Finn". Folktinget is organizazation under the leash of Finnish goverment as its role is even formulated in the law.
Finland-Swedish NGOs such as Finlandssvenska samling and Finland Swedisg Think Thank, Magma rely on the term Finland-Swede. Whether its grammatically correct or not, I don´t know but expressing finlandssvenskhet with notion "Swedish-speaking Finnishness" sounds lot more clumsy as opposed to Finland-Swedishness.
But as said it's kind of sad that the state affiliated Finland-Swedish interest groups have to market themselves for Finns under the conditions of low self-confidence of Finns.
Jaakkeli,
I don´t know in what kind racial purity bubble are you living.
Mannerheim's Swedish direct paternal lineage came to Sweden in the early 17th century where the family stayed and intermarried for hundred and fifty years prior to arriving Svenskfinland.
Mannerheim's moternal family von Julin is also relatively recently arrived family from Sweden to Svenskfinland (Swedish territory).
Same thing with Svinhufvud, his family arrived from Sweden too. Whether some Germans where assimilated to Swedishness in both sides of the gulf hardly plays any signficance to one's ethnic identity, as you continuously seem to imply.
But, ofcourse if its shiffers your confidence (or compensates the lack of it), you can ofcourse make up all kind of fairytales to illegitimize the Swedishness of Finland's national heroes.
The aristocracy in Finland has always been from Sweden just as in the case two presidents of Finland.
"New light on the colonisation of Nyland", 2005
http://www.ennenjanyt.net/4-04/haggren.pdf
"Nyland has always been characterized as an area of medieval colonisation conducted by the Swedes. Previously this colonisation has been seen as an immigration if independent peasants. As a new result a significant noble impact has been verified both in the colonisation activity itself and the establishing of parish churches as well".
JL you are correct that Folktinget is most likely the originator of the "Swedish-speaking Finn". Folktinget is organizazation under the leash of Finnish goverment as its role is even formulated in the law.
Finland-Swedish NGOs such as Finlandssvenska samling and Finland Swedisg Think Thank, Magma rely on the term Finland-Swede. Whether its grammatically correct or not, I don´t know but expressing finlandssvenskhet with notion "Swedish-speaking Finnishness" sounds lot more clumsy as opposed to Finland-Swedishness.
But as said it's kind of sad that the state affiliated Finland-Swedish interest groups have to market themselves for Finns under the conditions of low self-confidence of Finns.
Jaakkeli,
I don´t know in what kind racial purity bubble are you living.
Mannerheim's Swedish direct paternal lineage came to Sweden in the early 17th century where the family stayed and intermarried for hundred and fifty years prior to arriving Svenskfinland.
Mannerheim's moternal family von Julin is also relatively recently arrived family from Sweden to Svenskfinland (Swedish territory).
Same thing with Svinhufvud, his family arrived from Sweden too. Whether some Germans where assimilated to Swedishness in both sides of the gulf hardly plays any signficance to one's ethnic identity, as you continuously seem to imply.
But, ofcourse if its shiffers your confidence (or compensates the lack of it), you can ofcourse make up all kind of fairytales to illegitimize the Swedishness of Finland's national heroes.
The aristocracy in Finland has always been from Sweden just as in the case two presidents of Finland.
"New light on the colonisation of Nyland", 2005
http://www.ennenjanyt.net/4-04/haggren.pdf
"Nyland has always been characterized as an area of medieval colonisation conducted by the Swedes. Previously this colonisation has been seen as an immigration if independent peasants. As a new result a significant noble impact has been verified both in the colonisation activity itself and the establishing of parish churches as well".
I am not sure whether I understood, the share of Finland-Swedes has radically decreased due to the return to Sweden and assmilation.
"It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the pratical minority situation in Finland and through ethnic affinity with Sweden".
Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedissh wheel of migration. Identity, networks and integration 1976-2000.
Some argue that the retreat to Sweden is caused by the general hostility towards Swedishness in Finland
"Den dominerande finska inställningen till det svenska och överhuvudtaget allt icke finskt, kan uppfattas som stundtals närmast militant intolerant. Landet för en allmänt restriktiv invandrarpolitik. Att den så kallade äktfinska rörelsen upplever detta som positivt må vara hänt, men detta kan ha haft viss betydelse rent samhällsekonomiskt".
"Den finlandssvenska självbilden", 2008 http://www.fris.nu/arkiv2/Uppsats%20Den%20finlandssvenska%20sjalvbilden.pdf
BTW did you receive my e-mail, not sure whether it reached you.
About the genetics of Finlad-Swedes, Finnish-scholars have traditionally tried to diminish any differences with either dubious sampling methods (no-ancestry verification) or by semantic gimmicks, whereas the international scholars have emphasized the genetic differences between the two ethnicities.
We have to still wait for a thorough genomowide sample for Finland-Swedes.
Here´s couple older studies from the 80´s
"Table 1 shows the distibution ADA (Adenosine deamiase) phenotypes in three samples each from Finland-Swedes (population 1, 2, 3,) and Finns (4,5,6). Brief preliminary reports of these data have been presented elsewhere. The ADA2 gene frequency is about 0.6 in the Swedish population investigated in Finland and 0.10 in the Finns"......The difference between the distribution of ADA phenotypes in the Finland-Swedes and in Finns is significant".
Adenosine deaminase polymorphism in Finland (Swedes, Finns, and Lapps), the Mari republic (Cheremisses), and Greenland (Eskimos).
"Among Alanders and Swedes on the Finnish mainland the frequency (around 20%) was comparable to Swedish values but considerably higher than among Finns".
ABH secretion polymorphism in Icelanders, Aland Islanders, Finns, Finnish Lapps, Komi and Greenland Eskimos.
A recent Y-STR study sampled 87 Finland-Swedes and contrasted them to rest of the Finland.
"The subpopulation LMO (Larsmo, Swedish-speaking) differed significantly from all the other populations".
"The geographical substructure among the Finn
More....
"It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the pratical minority situation in Finland and through ethnic affinity with Sweden".
Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedissh wheel of migration. Identity, networks and integration 1976-2000.
Some argue that the retreat to Sweden is caused by the general hostility towards Swedishness in Finland
"Den dominerande finska inställningen till det svenska och överhuvudtaget allt icke finskt, kan uppfattas som stundtals närmast militant intolerant. Landet för en allmänt restriktiv invandrarpolitik. Att den så kallade äktfinska rörelsen upplever detta som positivt må vara hänt, men detta kan ha haft viss betydelse rent samhällsekonomiskt".
"Den finlandssvenska självbilden", 2008 http://www.fris.nu/arkiv2/Uppsats%20Den%20finlandssvenska%20sjalvbilden.pdf
BTW did you receive my e-mail, not sure whether it reached you.
About the genetics of Finlad-Swedes, Finnish-scholars have traditionally tried to diminish any differences with either dubious sampling methods (no-ancestry verification) or by semantic gimmicks, whereas the international scholars have emphasized the genetic differences between the two ethnicities.
We have to still wait for a thorough genomowide sample for Finland-Swedes.
Here´s couple older studies from the 80´s
"Table 1 shows the distibution ADA (Adenosine deamiase) phenotypes in three samples each from Finland-Swedes (population 1, 2, 3,) and Finns (4,5,6). Brief preliminary reports of these data have been presented elsewhere. The ADA2 gene frequency is about 0.6 in the Swedish population investigated in Finland and 0.10 in the Finns"......The difference between the distribution of ADA phenotypes in the Finland-Swedes and in Finns is significant".
Adenosine deaminase polymorphism in Finland (Swedes, Finns, and Lapps), the Mari republic (Cheremisses), and Greenland (Eskimos).
"Among Alanders and Swedes on the Finnish mainland the frequency (around 20%) was comparable to Swedish values but considerably higher than among Finns".
ABH secretion polymorphism in Icelanders, Aland Islanders, Finns, Finnish Lapps, Komi and Greenland Eskimos.
A recent Y-STR study sampled 87 Finland-Swedes and contrasted them to rest of the Finland.
"The subpopulation LMO (Larsmo, Swedish-speaking) differed significantly from all the other populations".
"The geographical substructure among the Finn
More....
Jaakkeli´s speculation are ridiculious but very typical for Finns. The Finland-Swedes are the stereotyped aristocracy in Finland. 90% of Finland-Swedes are however, rural coastal dwellers in Ostrobotnia and the Southern archipelago.
In the capital Helsingfors as well as Stockholm and Gothenburg the Swedish culture has assimilated foreigners. Mostly Germans from Germany and Baltics. However, most of the them, as the two former presidents of Finland, both noble men, Mannerheim, (mothernal family von Julin) and Svinhufvud af Qvalstadt are Swedish born.
There´s about 1200 jews in Finland, where 300 are registered as Swedish-speakers, but usually these 300 hundred do not have any Finland-Swedish ethnic identity.
In the capital Helsingfors as well as Stockholm and Gothenburg the Swedish culture has assimilated foreigners. Mostly Germans from Germany and Baltics. However, most of the them, as the two former presidents of Finland, both noble men, Mannerheim, (mothernal family von Julin) and Svinhufvud af Qvalstadt are Swedish born.
There´s about 1200 jews in Finland, where 300 are registered as Swedish-speakers, but usually these 300 hundred do not have any Finland-Swedish ethnic identity.
Razib,
could you please elaborate what exactly in the wikipedia articke for "Swedish-speaking Finn" gave you the impression of language change? Please tell me. I browsed through the article and didn´t get the same feel. The big fuss seems to be the age of the Germanic presence in Finland. Some argue there´s a Scandinavian continuity from antique to present, some argue the Swedes in Finland are just an offshoot of the recent middle-age expansion.
The name itself "Swedish-speaking Finn" is recent political term co-incided by Finnish state bureaucrats. Some perceive it offensive, and prefer the traditional form "Finland-Swede"
Tore Modeen (Europa Ethnica, 1999)
"In Finland this question (Swedish nationality) has been subjected to much discussion. The Finnish majority tries to deny the existence of a Swedish nationality. An example of this is the fact that the statutes always use the concept ´Swedish-speaking´ instead of Swedish"
Carl O Nordling
"Less well known internationally is the 6 percent minority of ethnic Swedes in Finland. While we never hear of `Sami speaking Norwegians`, `Hebrew speaking Palestinians` etc., one often stumbles on the term "Swedish speaking Finns" to denote a certain group of ethnic Swedes. This is a way of denying the group their ethnic identity. Admittedly, something similar is practised in Turkey, where the Kurds are called `Mountain Turks` in official quarters".
Finland-Swedes are Swedes who live in a geographic area referred as Svenskfinland. They are offshoots of Swedish expansion the coastal parts of Finland during the 13 and 14th century. In parallel of events which lead to Central Swedish expansion to Northern Sweden.
Finland-Swedes have a wholly different cultural identity as opposed to Finns. They have their own literature, theathre, life-style etc. Denoting the group of Swedes in Finland as "Swedish-speaking Finns" is nothing but chauvinism and grose attempt from the majority to impose the concept of one nationality for ethnic minorities.
could you please elaborate what exactly in the wikipedia articke for "Swedish-speaking Finn" gave you the impression of language change? Please tell me. I browsed through the article and didn´t get the same feel. The big fuss seems to be the age of the Germanic presence in Finland. Some argue there´s a Scandinavian continuity from antique to present, some argue the Swedes in Finland are just an offshoot of the recent middle-age expansion.
The name itself "Swedish-speaking Finn" is recent political term co-incided by Finnish state bureaucrats. Some perceive it offensive, and prefer the traditional form "Finland-Swede"
Tore Modeen (Europa Ethnica, 1999)
"In Finland this question (Swedish nationality) has been subjected to much discussion. The Finnish majority tries to deny the existence of a Swedish nationality. An example of this is the fact that the statutes always use the concept ´Swedish-speaking´ instead of Swedish"
Carl O Nordling
"Less well known internationally is the 6 percent minority of ethnic Swedes in Finland. While we never hear of `Sami speaking Norwegians`, `Hebrew speaking Palestinians` etc., one often stumbles on the term "Swedish speaking Finns" to denote a certain group of ethnic Swedes. This is a way of denying the group their ethnic identity. Admittedly, something similar is practised in Turkey, where the Kurds are called `Mountain Turks` in official quarters".
Finland-Swedes are Swedes who live in a geographic area referred as Svenskfinland. They are offshoots of Swedish expansion the coastal parts of Finland during the 13 and 14th century. In parallel of events which lead to Central Swedish expansion to Northern Sweden.
Finland-Swedes have a wholly different cultural identity as opposed to Finns. They have their own literature, theathre, life-style etc. Denoting the group of Swedes in Finland as "Swedish-speaking Finns" is nothing but chauvinism and grose attempt from the majority to impose the concept of one nationality for ethnic minorities.
Picking the perfect baby
Hi Razib,
As an Australian I am curious as to why you think our newspapers are any worse than say an English or American newspaper as they all feed off each other. ;)
As an Australian I am curious as to why you think our newspapers are any worse than say an English or American newspaper as they all feed off each other. ;)
The lamentations of their women – the movie?
I thought I read in Sir Joh Keegans book 'History of warfare" that the mongols did NOT take women captives to avoid conflict with the mongol "horde"?
Why you play the game
It would be interesting to compare the psychological profile of a someone like Matt, who is not only willing to adjust his thinking with new data but does so gladly, with the vast majority of people who simply do not want to admit they are wrong when they have poured their energy into something, like a passionate debate.
Does it translate?
This brings up an interesting side question. Since many claim it is better to hear Homer aloud, what are the best audio versions of the Iliad and Odyssey? Librivox seems to have a version of Odyssey but I don't like a female narrator, especially for an epic poem. Also I am not sure if the Samuel Butler is the best one to hear aloud.
The Mooney-Sokal op-ed
Noen of the topics in the 'partial' list are actually taboo. Perhaps research on them might be sneered at by the chattering class in academia, but that doesn't mean the work won't be funded or get done. Research grants are competitive, but a good solid proposal has a reasonable chance of success even if the chatterers don't like it. The use of 'left' and 'right' in this discussion is somewhat simplistic, as well. Both sides have historically been 'against' things before they were 'for ' them.

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