Posts with Comments by Syarikat

Tonal languages, perfect pitch, and ethnicity

  • I'm with ziel here. First, tones in tonal languages do indeed refer to pitch rather than absolute pitch. Also, the tones in Mandarin aren't all level tones; some 'tones' are in fact tonal 'shapes' (rising, rising-falling). So the number of discrete 'steps' (pitch intervals) that Mandarin speakers would learn to recognize is rather limited, and certainly doesn't correspond with the 12-semitones-to-the-octave used in Western music.  
    And then, what is 'perfect' pitch? So apparently some of the participants could identify (Western) notes. Would they also be able identify the quarter-tones used in Indian or Arab music (point of interest: Hindi, for instance, is an Indo-European, non-tonal language). And could the the Asian tone language speakers distinguish between equal-temperament intervals and 'pure' intervals? Would they be able to notice slight deviations from conventional pitches (e.g. an 'a' being played at, say, 443 rather than 440 Hz?). 
     
    Next, what about the phenomenon of downdrift, which AFAIK has been attested for tone languages as well as for intonation languages (not: 'monotonous' languages: have you ever listened to an Italian or a Brazilian, neither of which speak 'tonw' languages?) 
     
    Moreover, it seems odd to confine the experiment to speakers of Asian tone languages, precisely because of the role of tonal shape in those languages (as opposed to tonal level).  
     
    In fact, there are also 'discrete level' tone languages, most of which IIRC are spoken in Africa. But even then, it's relative levels not absolute ones. And even African 'level tone' also have 'downdrift' as well as another phenomenon called 'downstep', which is a grammically conditioned relative drop in pitch. All of the above prevent specific words or syllables from being pronounced at a fixed, well-defined pitch. 
     
    I can imagine a speaker of a tone language (be it 'contour-based' or 'level-based' being more sensitive to tonal differences than non-tonal speakers. But that would refer to *relative* pitch (which is more musically relevant than perfect pitch anyway, although the latter can come in handy if you have to tune an instrument or have to start a piece a capella out of the blue without a reference not. I can see no obvious connection between 'tone' as it functions in languages and 'perfect' pitch (however defined).
  • Avowed condemnation of bribery does not predict corruption

  • If that were the case, wouldn't there be a negative correlation between the variables, rather than no correlation? 
     
    As a suggest in my previous comment, I think more variable should be taken into account in order to explain these outcomes.
  • I think that the distribution over the quadrants, at least, is not entirely meaningless. I'd say the four quadrants represent the following categories:  
     
    - Top Left: the nihilists who nevertheless engage in moral behaviour (practically non-existent); 
    - Top Right: the principled who have been disappointed or affected by cultural relativism; 
    - Bottom Left: cynical realists, relatively unconstrained by culture; 
    - Bottom Right: realists at heart who accept corruption in practice, but feel culturally compelled to profess their disaproval of same in public. 
     
    Other variables such as 'shame' vs. 'guilt' cultures, socially desirable responses influenced by current government policies and related public discourse, recent experiences with (the failure of) anti-corruption campaigns, etc. 
     
    For instance, Indonesia (the only non-Western country that I am familiar with) has a 'shame' oriented culture where appearances are often considered very imported, so it's very common to hear people publicly condemn certain practices even though it is well-known or suspected that they engage in such behaviour themselves. 
     
    Various forms of corruption, including bribery are so common as to be virtually unavoidable: basically all public services (such as permits) require bribes to be paid at some point or other. Most Indonesians accept that as a fact of life even though they may be opposed to it in the abstract. There is also an understandable tendency to rationalize their own corrupt behaviour and call it something else. 
     
    Re terminogy and concepts: the Indonesian national language actually has the word 'korupsi', often used in conjunction with indigenized variants of 'collusion' and 'nepotisme' (under the acronym KKN), and there are a plethora of euphemisms and humorous ways of referring to all kinds of phenomena related to corruption. 
     
    The Suharto regime was notorious for its institutionalized and highly centralized system of corruption. Everybody was in on it or you couldn't get anything done, but resentment of corruption was limited as long as the economy and the general standard of living kept growing, which it did until the Asian crisis of 1997-1998. When that stopped, people suddenly took more serious offense to the way the Suharto family and cronies had raked in an ever bigger slice of the pie in an increasingly open and shameless manner. 
     
    The post-Suharto Reformasi movement thus made fighting corruption of its primary goals, but it was overtaken by reality as corruption found new channels (often ultimately benefiting old established elites) under the new, decentralized form of government. The new governance structure took away the tight control over money flows from the central goverment but created myriad new opportunities at the regional and local levels. 
     
    Now that local officials, businessmen and
    More....
  • Some people better language learners?

  • The abstract preceding the article only speaks of a speech-specific origin of individual variability in "L2 phonetic mastery" which is not at all the same as "the ability to speak and master other languages". What about morphology, syntax, vocabulary use, etc.? 
     
    I must admit that according to my own casual observations, phonetic skills tend to correlate with other aspects of language mastery to a certain extent, but they are by no means interchangeable.
  • Interracial marriage and Asian Americans

  • Indonesians do not fit into any of the above categories. I would guess that there may not be large enough concentrations of them in the US to merit separate statistics. 
     
    Racially and linguistically, Indonesians are on average closest to Filipinos (a Javanese, for example, would be difficult to distinguish visually from someone from Manila; and Philippine languages such as Tagalog and Cebuano are more closely related to West Indonesian languages (in Java, Sumatra, Borneo/Kalimantan etc. than the latter are to East Indonesian languages (in Flores, Timor, the Moluccas etc). 
     
    But the dominant religious in Indonesian is Islam whereas in the Philippines it is Catholicism. Cultural and religious affiliation is highly relevant to outmarriage patterns as marriage of Muslim women to non-Muslims is unacceptable to the majority of Muslims. In cases where Muslim Indonesian women do marry foreigners, their families usually insist on formal the conversion to Islam of the prospective husband, including circumcision etc., and an Islamic marriage ceremony. 
     
    So it's socially much easier for a Filipina to marry an outsider than for an Indonesian. Plus their English is usually much better. 
     
    To complicate things, a significant part of those Indonesian citizens who have the means and the will to travel abroad are ethnic Chinese (who comprise probably less than 5% of Indonesia's total population but are highly visible in urban and coastal areas and are very dominant economically).
  • Arms races and interracial encounters

  • sorry, that's  
     
    Nathalie Cole who grew up in a predominantly WHITE environment but married a black guy
  • While I don't have state on BM/WF vs WM/BF mating here in the Netherlands, based on personal observation I estimate that it resembles the British ratios more than the American ones. 
    I suspect that negative social consequences faced by those who mate outside their own group (especially against BFs dating WMs) plays a more important role in the US in 'deterring' BF/WF interracial pairings (BF being criticized or ridiculed by their peers). This would affect WF much less, as their social environment would often be hesitant to express their opinion for fear of being called 'racist'. 
     
    As Britain and continental Europe have had different (and much later) experiences with the presence of signifant numbers of nonwhites (no history slavery in the mother country, no Jim Crow, no segregation etc.) the social consequences are different here. 
     
    Note that black American female celebs rarely if ever date or marry a non-black (Alicia Keys, Beyonce, Halle Berry, Vanessa Williams etc) even if they have interacted much with whites (e.g. Nathalie Cole who grew up in a predominantly black environment but married a black guy). 
     
    If they did, my guess would be they would face a lot of criticism from blacks. By contrast nobody says a word when Heidi Klum marries Seal. 
     
    By contrast, it is not at all uncommon for black female celebs in the Netherlands to date or marry a white guy (e.g. soul/r&b singer Edislia Rombley with white musician/producer Tjeerd Oosterhuis and black model/actress Jasmine Sendar with white health spa manager Rutger Fahrner), with no racial comments whatsoever heard in the media. 
     
    Not so sure about Britain, but Mel B (Scary Spice) for instance has dated both black and white guys.
  • What people say, and what they do

  • Students were asked to rate their peers in terms of attractiveness and EXPECTED future financial success. Wouldn't be surprised if their expectations were heavily biased in favour of the attractive ones, and had little to do with ACTUAL future earning power.
  • ASPM & Microcephalin & tonal languages?

  • Here is a paper on speakers of tonal language and 'perfect pitch':  
    http://www.acoustics.org/press/138th/deutsch.htm 
     
    I have my doubts on this 'perfect pitch' at least in the sense that it is generally used. 
     
    I majored in linguistics (but have limited knowledge of and experience with tonal language. I'm also a musician, have studied piano in a conservatory, and have a very well-developed musical hearing, but no 'perfect pitch'; that is, I need a reference note to be sure of which note I'm hearing, but I'm able to transcribe melody lines and harmonies accurately by ear once I have such a reference. 
     
    Based on my experience (which includes accompanying people of many different backgrounds singing at weddings etc, and working regularly with a singer who is a speaker of a tonal language) the notion of almost all speakers of tonal languages having 'perfect pitch' in the usual, musical sense strikes me as highly unlikely - I tested a Vietnamese-born and Vietnamese-speaking colleague who plays the guitar, and he couldn't tune it correctly. The lead singer I usually work with is an African, a native speaker of Lingala (a tone language) and a gifted musician who plays the piano and the guitar; but he needs reference notes, too (also when he has to do an a capella intro, for example). 
     
    On the other hand, I've noticed that amateur singers with no notion of pitch or musical scales whatsoever often hit the 'right' first note if they sing a song they are familiar with without accompaniment; the same individuals are utterly unable to hit a note in an unfamiliar piece, or harmony part. Possibly their hitting the right note has to do with their 'feeling' and reproducing a certain amount of vocal cord tension. The same phenomenon could be at work with the Vietnamese and Mandarin speakers.  
     
    Also, the explanation for the acquisition (or retention) of perfect pitch does not convince me: 
     
    "our findings lead us to conjecture that the potential for acquiring absolute pitch may be universal, and that it can be realised by the association of pitches with meaningful words very early in life. " 
     
    Some linguistic points: 
     
    - Vietnamese and Mandarin are 'contour tone languages'. It is the shape of the pitch contour, not its absolute pitch, that determine the identity of a speech sound. 
     
    - even in 'level-tone languages' (e.g. many African languages) the sounds are not associated with exact pitches; for instance, they are subject to downdrift, so the exact pitches will vary depending on where in the utterance they occur (and on the downdrift characteristics of the speaker. The degree of downdrift also varies with utterance length. 
     
    - different individuals have very different vocal ranges; the same word pronounced by two speakers will usually be pronounced at different pitches as well, but remai
    More....
  • Salaam

  • "The namaste gesture and salam! What a combo!" 
     
    The Sundanese (West Java) think of themselves as one of the more pious Muslim ethnicities in Indonesia, but they traditionally use a greeting gesture very similar to what namaste looks like in that picture. It's mostly used by older/traditional people, or in traditional contexts (e.g. weddings). 
     
    The Sundanese have a lot of greeting/politeness expressions in their own language, but also regularly use Arabic phrases in religious and social context, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear/see that combination.
  • Language families in maps & trees

  • The error message says the data transfer limit has been exceeded and that the page will be available again after midnight (local time).
  • Callipygian queen

  • "In the case of the love-shy the face is invariably the first and foremost physical feature of a woman to receive focused attention. It must be pretty (no make-up), and it must have long (straight or tousled) hair, with no complex or fancy hair styles. When the love-shy do look beyond the face, the second item likely to capture their attention is the legs/thighs (which they like thin), followed by the rear end, which they like small and well-rounded. Very unlike the extroverts, breasts are not noticed by them at all, unless the breasts are viewed as being too large.  
     
    I?ve no idea whether this is to be relied on." 
     
    Well, here's one more data point. Being an introvert myself (in dating situations anyway) I find this to be an amazingly accurate description of my own preferences. 
     
    I'd like to read that book.
  • Jan-Michael Vincent, lost Finnish orphan?

  • "Don't worry, we'll nail the Dutch next. I hate the Dutch! Especially this paragon of Dutch male-volence"" 
     
    Let's wait until the trial, shall we? I find the American attitudes toward a murder investigation a country which a per capita crime rate orders of magnitude below that of the US (I'm talking about Aruba here, not the Netherlands) a bit odd. 
     
    What exactly have 'the Dutch' done to you?
  • “Black” and “white” twins

  • "Or did they assimilate, in which case there should be some occasional blue eyes or blond hair, I suppose." 
     
    I've been told by a Frenchman of North African descent that light eyes and/or blonde hair are not uncommon in Algeria.
  • Nordic beauty wins again!

  • She bears some resemblance to pornstar Malin Mandel 
     
    http://reddroseproductions.com/malin.html
  • France

  • "Intermarriage is often used as an inverse proxy for racism. As a measure, it leaves much to be desired, but it is quantifiable." 
     
    The ratio, for groups A and B, between Amale-Bfemale and Afemale-Bmale marriages seems to me a better proxy for racist tendencies than the intermarriage rate as such (I'd say the closer the ratio is to 1, the lower the racist tendency).
  • DUTCH TREAT

  • Below is a rough translation of information on the RAKIT test, found on www.plato.caiw.nl
    The parts marked with [?] are ambiguous in the original Dutch.

    "RAKIT refers to Revisie Amsterdamse Kinder Intelligentie Test (Revised Amsterdam Intelligence Test for Children). The tests are intended for children aged 4-11 yrs, are conducted individually, and take about 2.5 hours. RAKIT consists of 12 subtests. For the youngest age bracket (4-5), the subtests measure: verbal learning ability and verbal fluency, spatial-perceptual reasoning, sequential memory and quantity [?]. For the 5-11 yr bracket: perceptual reasoning, verbal learning ability, spatial orientation, tempo [?] and verbal fluency. […] The raw sub-test scores may be converted to standardized scores."

  • The lack of data on "Indonesian" Dutch is partly due to the policy definitions used for ethnic minorities in the Netherlands. Because the notion of "racial" classifications is tainted because of the sad legacy of World War II, when the Nazis had no trouble at all pinpointing Dutch Jews because of the detailed civil records, the government had to come up with a way of singling out (ethnic) groups which demanded special attention (such as affirmative action programs, which have taken a rather different approach than in the US, for instance). So "ethnic minorities" called "allochtonen" in the PC speak of the last few decades, are defined on the basis of the country of birth of the parents (needless to say, this sometimes produces odd results as some white persons may have been born in Surinam, for instance, and thus officially counted as "allochtoon" for some purposes.
    The arrival of "Indonesian" Dutch (actually, most of them were Eurasians, also known as "Indische Nederlanders" or "Indo's" who often felt more akin to the Dutch than to the Indonesians while they were still in the colony) and Moluccans took place in the early 1950s. The "Indische Nederlanders" were usually fluent in Dutch and relatively well-educated. Although some second and third generation Indische Nederlanders are culturally drawn to Indonesia, they are on average very well integrated into the Dutch mainstream. The Moluccans were a more difficult (but much smaller) group. First generation Moluccans were often not fluent in Dutch, and resentment of Dutch decolonization policy made them a volatile group. However, time has removed most of the sharp edges by now, nowadays young Moluccans speak Dutch as well as Malay, most of them have jobs and have become political realists. Not unimportantly, most of them are Christians.
    Turks and Moroccans are overwhelmingly Muslim, have arrived more recently and in much greater numbers, and have more language difficulties. However, the young Moroccans who are perceived as difficult in Dutch society are usually fluent in Dutch, so that is no longer the main problem. (What IS, is a topic which would take too long to discuss here).
    Anyway, "Indonesian" Dutch are absent from the statistics because of the way the criteria for being considered "allochtoon" were formulated. These criteria were formulated intentionally so as to include "difficult" ethnic groups without using overtly "racial" or "ethnic" criteria. "Indische Nederlanders" are not considered especially "difficult"; and most of them, or their parents/grandparents, have arrived to long ago for the "country of birth" criterion to apply.

  • GATB = General Aptitude Test Battery
    Quote from
    http://www.ed.gov/pubs/GED/appendb.html:

    "The General Aptitude Test Battery (GATB) was designed to measure the work-related skills of applicants for white-collar civil service jobs in the U.S. government. It consists of nine tests of aptitude, including general ability, verbal aptitude, numerical aptitude, and other occupationally related aptitudes such as clerical perception and manual dexterity. Of the nine, general ability and verbal aptitude are the most closely related to the GED."

    DAT = Differential Aptitude Test

    http://scnc.mcs.k12.mi.us/counselor/Calendar.htm
    provides more details on the composition of this test.

  • "Antillies is about 85% Creole (Mixed Black)"

    Most ordinary Dutch, who are only vaguely aware of the ethnic intricacies of their former colonies and remaining overseas dependencies, would consider the “mixed black” group simpy “black”. The presence of the ore “purely” black group found in Surinam (the Maroons or “Bosnegers”, descendants of escaped slaves) is negligible in the Netherlands.

    "I would guess that from these countries non-Negros would be more likely to leave than the Negros."

    Not necessarily, because the East Asians, Chinese (and also the numerically insignificant whites) are economically dominant, so there is somewhat less incentive for them to leave. While is a significant number East Asians (“Hindostanen”) in the Netherlands, they have the strongest presence in The Hague, while most of Surinam’s Creoles are concentrated in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. The former group is socio-economically relatively well-off and well-educated, so it doesn’t often appear in publications designed to deal with "problematic groups" (the same goes for groups like the Chinese, who mostly keep to themselves socially, but are successful economically and educationally and are virtually absent from Dutch crime statistics). When speaking of “Surinamers” most Dutch people primarily think of the Creoles.

    "David B's Dutch language theory is not consistent with the fact that Antillians and Guyanese improve more across the generations than Turks and Moroccans."

    Surinamese usually speak much better Dutch than lower-class Antillians. Surinam has been independent since 1975, and the last big immigration wave from that country occurred around that time. Even then, Dutch is still dominant as the language of administration and education, while in the Antilles, which is still part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Papiamento (a Portuguese/Spanish based creole language with some Dutch vocabulary) is dominant. Only the higher social classes are really fluent in Dutch. The small well-educated Antillian elite in the Netherlands generally arrived in the 1960s and 1970s. Recent Antillian “immigrants” (they are citizens) are almost invariably from the lowest social strata, speak an impoverished form of Dutch, are barely educated and often unemployed. While it is hard to tell a Surinamese from an Antillian from their appearance, their behaviour and related problems are quite different. Lower-class Antillians’ command of Dutch is not much better than that of Turks and Moroccans, so they have comparable room for improvement. But Turkish and Moroccan improvement is seriously impeded by (voluntary) social segregation and the role of (some manifestations of) Islam.

    "I don't know whether the Turkish and Moroccan 2nd-gen children are entirely fluent in Dutch"

    “Fluent” yes (like, African-Americans are very fluent in English), but (academic) proficiency levels differ greatly
    More....

  • I thank Allah I was born a man

  • Zarife, a 18-year old Turkish girl living in the town of Almelo in the Netherlands (the same town where the current Turkish Miss World, Azra Akin (http://cft.fis.uc.pt/eef/holland.htm), who grew up in the Netherlands, is from) was recently killed with a shotgut by her father during a "holiday" in Turkey, and for pretty much the same reason. Now the Turks and the Kurds are not always the best of friends - but there seem to be some cultural similarities.

    Quote from "The Duke" on ICQ.com:

    "18 year old Zarife from Almelo murdered in Turkey by her Father

    Zarife (18) Lived in Almelo with her family up until about 6 months ago. She had ben advised by local Dutch police to seek shelter elsewhere after violent family arguments stemming from Zarrife's refusal to wear a Chador or Head scarf while attending her college classes at the R.O.C. College in Almelo the Netherlands , and for conflicts concerning other Islamic child rearing methods.

    Her family (father and brothers ) had begun a manhunt for her with the help of some friends out of the local Turkish community. The Goal : To restore the Family honor ..

    After an exhaustive search the Father had succeeded in locating Zarrife who was then staying in a family crisis asylum center under the care of the Steunpunt Minderheden Overijssel S.M.O. ( Minority support organisation Overijssel ).

    The father entered the facilitie with the brothers of Zarrife and forced her under threats of death to leave the the center , after which she refused and was then forcibly abducted.

    Zarrife was taken out of Holland and flown to Turkey under the guise of a family vacation , with father and brothers on all sides she had no chance to call out to airport officials for help .

    She was focibly flown back to Ankara where after one final attempt to bring her back to the fold of Islam resulted in argument after which her father shot her to death with a 12 guage shotgun.

    For the father of Zarife this is not the first time that he has had his hand in Islamic Family Retribution Killings , a boy who was attending the same school and classes as Zarife had been previously brutally beaten and molested by her father, and brothers and had shortly thereafter committed suicide."

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