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The genetic history of the Serbs (and proto-Serbs)

Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples:

The Roman Empire expanded through the Mediterranean shores and brought human mobility and cosmopolitanism across this inland sea to an unprecedented scale. However, if this was also common at the Empire frontiers remains undetermined. The Balkans and Danube River were of strategic importance for the Romans acting as an East-West connection and as a defense line against “barbarian” tribes. We generated genome-wide data from 70 ancient individuals from present-day Serbia dated to the first millennium CE; including Viminacium, capital of Moesia Superior province. Our analyses reveal large scale-movements from Anatolia during Imperial rule, similar to the pattern observed in Rome, and cases of individual mobility from as far as East Africa. Between ca 250-500 CE, we detect gene-flow from Central/Northern Europe harboring admixtures of Iron Age steppe groups. Tenth-century CE individuals harbored North-Eastern European-related ancestry likely associated to Slavic-speakers, which contributed >20% of the ancestry of today’s Balkan people.

99 thoughts on “The genetic history of the Serbs (and proto-Serbs)

  1. This is a surprise. We usually don’t get ancient DNA from the 1st millennium AD.

    But I guarantee, the authors have no idea what to do with the data.

    “Anatolia.” Roman samples in Italy show admix mostly from Greece & Levant not Anatolia. This makes sense when you consider Greeks, Phoenicians dominated the Meditereaen before Rome.

    “Northcentral Europe.” Probably temporary Germanic visitors. The only northern ancestry in Balkans today comes from Slavs.

  2. @Sam, maybe. Slavic speakers only, maybe.

    But at the same time, Slavic groups vary from Czechs who are close to East Germans to Ukrainians who are much less close to German groups (with Baltic BA type affinity).

    In some f stats, South Slavic speaking groups and genomically similar people (Romanians) don’t clearly too well fit by being between Ukrainians and Greeks, or Ukrainians and South Italians or anything.

    Some f3 stat cross plots that illustrate this: https://imgur.com/a/Cxl7uf1 (all about 250k SNPs).

    If the South Slavic groups did have one “Northern” vector of ancestry shift, its plausible to me that it was Czech-like rather than Ukrainian-like. Or alternatively could have been Ukrainian-like and there was also a German-like pulse as well (because that gets to the same place).

  3. Thanks, Razib, just found this thread. I will read the full text and send my comment as soon as I finish something. In meantime, maybe someone else will comment, too.

  4. It is a pity that the paper couldn’t integrate older data from the region. There is pre-Roman ancient DNA from the Balkans in existence and integrating that into the analysis could have provided a more rich narrative.

    I also have to fault the authors a little for failing to be more interdisciplinary. Basically this entire time frame in this area is part of the historic record and so it isn’t necessary to be as vague as the authors are about what was happening. Someone was present and wrote it all down with names and dates and reasons.

  5. I could of course share this post of Ariel90 who answers Riverman in Anthrogenica: “I think its also noteworthy that in the Balkan IA cluster is https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L20/ This is most likely from the Celts, which colonised and fused with various tribes of the region”.

    Or from Romans, that conquered the place and had plenty of L2 (10 out of 25 R1b Etruscans were L2).
    To me, it’s not clear at all if these samples had some kind of Italic or modern Italian-like admixture. It’s hard to tell since the two groups are basically on the same spot in the PCA. Maybe uniparental markers would help here. G25 is going to be confusing since many of these samples are going to be close to modern Italians anyway, if they are indeed like BGR_IA. Also I have a question: where are the romans here? Who are the romans? There’s no way that roman colonies had no Romans… right? How did the empire even worked? Who taught Latin to Iberians, Gauls and Dacians? There is no way that people didn’t move out of Italy! It’s clear to me, that some of these east-med individuals or some of these balkan-like samples might have actually been Italics from somewhere, but that’s my opinion…

  6. I have of course to study the data, but the presence of mt U5b3 and perhaps of I-M223 demonstrates without any doubt also an expansion in the Mesolithic from the Italian refugium to the Balkans too.

  7. These are the “Conclusions” and this is what happened:

    Our results show how people with ancestral origins in Northwestern Europe, Anatolia and East Africa, together with the descendants of Balkan Iron Age populations, inhabited the capital city of the Moesia Province, Viminacium during the Imperial period 1-250 CE (Figure 4A). This indicates a high degree of cosmopolitanism, unprecedented in earlier periods. We found highly similar ancestry trajectories across time in Rome and Viminacium, with a strong Anatolian/Near Eastern influence during the Imperial period that resulted in a large portion of the analyzed individuals in both cities having Near Eastern ancestry, followed by a resurgence of local ancestry after the Empire’s decline . These results highlight how mobility from the Easternmost areas of the Empire was a common feature of large cities and towns from the capital city of Rome to the Danubian limes, but that demographically these populations were a veneer without long-lasting influences, suggesting either that they were greatly outnumbered by local rural populations, or that their reproductive rates were much lower than that of local rural populations, consistent with evidence that cities and towns in the Roman empire did not successfully reproduce themselves demographically and instead constantly had to be repopulated through immigration. In the Imperial period, genetic data suggest that a large proportion of this immigration derived from the Eastern Mediterranean highlighting the centrality of this region in the period of intense human connectivity during Imperial Rome.
    Conversely, the decline in the geographic scale and number of people involved in transMediterranean movements following the Empire’s decline is reflected in the fact that in later periods, Eastern Mediterranean influence largely disappeared in both the city of Rome and in the large towns of the Balkans. An important topic for future ancient DNA research will be to systematically characterize populations in cities and towns as well as rural locations across the Empire, to understand how these patterns differed across geographic locations.
    During and after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, we observe major demographic changes in our sites, with the arrival of ancestry from Northern Europe and the steppe between 250-500 CE, and Northeastern European-related ancestry during the Medieval period, likely associated to the arrival of Slavic-speaking groups (Figure 4C). Our study shows that the Iron Age native Balkan populations were not completely replaced with the arrival of Slavic migrations. These later events generated a cline of populations with relatively similar genetic profiles, yet, three unrelated language groups (Hungarian, Romanian and Southern Slavic) are spoken today in the Central-Northern Balkans area. Our study highlights a decoupling between genetic ancestry and linguistic diversity in modern Balkans that would require further investigation in this critical period. Thorough sampling of Eastern Europe during the first millennium CE will provide a detailed picture of contacts with steppe-nomadic groups as well as the source of the Slavic migrants that made such a key demographic impact on the Balkans.

  8. I can’t say that the paper is totally useless and that the title could be better presented by using non-genetic evidence. There are so many written documents and archaeological evidence. It looks like a high school assignment based on the current mainstream although some things are illogical. The positive is an inventory of archaeological findings so far and probably because people as Reich, Lazaridis signed this paper. Actually, H-dians already hit the wall, they realized that cannot progress anymore by skipping 7-8000 of years of European cultural history and starting from Yamnaya, 5000 years ago. They start researching Vinca but the Nature paper I cited yesterday is much more serious and has important data. On the top we have Razib’s humorous title to wake up happy Gilmore from his hibernation and to persuade him not to ignore this text and comments.

    Just to say that there are about 800 archaeological sites from Vinca and pre-Vinca civilisation period from 10K-5K BC which are researched 2-5% only. You can find any ‘mainstream’ evidence to prove what you have on your agenda, but you cannot hide the logical holes.

    It would be illusory discuss everything but only couple so obvious. ‘Slavic migrations’ are in the title but there is not any, neither genetic, nor any other prove that they existed. The ‘mainstream’ is yet to provide a single evidence that this migration existed. There is no mentioning about local, ‘rural’ pre-migration locals who lived around Roman cities. Where are Illyrians who gave more than a dozen of Emperors? What is the relationship btw Dacians and Goths (Romans actually called Goths – Dacians)? And these Dacians (today’s Romanians) have the same genetics as Serbs. It means that Slavics, who migrated to Balkan from somewhere, had the same genetics as indigenous Balkan people? How come? Slavic migrants to Balkan had the same language as Bulgarians, i.e. indigenous Balkan people from whom Asiatic Bulgars adopted the language. It is possible only if indigenous people also spoke the Serbian language as incoming ‘Slavics’ from somewhere (steppe?). What’s happened with all local people in the Roman Empire (in former Yugoslavia) who disappeared overnight and abandoned their land and houses? There are so many other smaller things but it is not possible to go further before previous questions are answered. Right now, we will not ask where and when Harry (I2) met Sally(R1a) and created (future) ‘Slavs’. This question is for the seasoned gnxp anti-autochthonists commenters.

    So, good try Razib, hope you will direct your attention to earlier (Vinca) periods. I also hope you are not pressurised to maintain the taboo on this topic. Optionally, you may answer the question from your last Substack writing – can we conclude that ‘Slavs’ were Aryans? As DA said, the key evidence is the language and I hope that readers-geneticists will cross check their findings with the language, otherwise, as standalone, they do not say much.

    PS. Just saw Gio’s comment – where are the Romans? I agree and laugh. And who were the Romans? In addition, I could ask Gio – who consisted the elite Illyrian legions (which gave dozens of Emperors), which were the iron fist of the Roman Empire? (Pliny the Elder listed the conscripts from tribes in Dalmatia at the beginning of new era, which, the first outside of the city of Rome, just got the Roman citizenship > all modern Serbian surnames).

  9. If we go into the specific, as every link has to be done until the terminal SNP and the private ones, there are in the data 3 R-Z2103, my hg., thought to be from Yamnaya (but I think that the origin could be westernmost). Unfortunately the samples are tested only until Z2103 or Z2105. Only one until CTS1450, thus we are waiting that someone could search more deeply, because the great question of this hg. in the Balkans is just the origin of what I (with Argiedude, ten years ago) called the “Balkan cluster” (R-Z2705) with a MRCA only in 450 AD but with older separated samples in Italy and Iberia, just for knowing if this hg. developed from an ancestor present in the Balkans or came from elsewhere just during the Roman Empire.

  10. Milan, I think having given you good advises, but if you continue in knowing liguistics upon Svetislav S. Bilbija and to think that “‘Slavic migrations’ are in the title but there is not any, neither genetic, nor any other prove that they existed. The ‘mainstream’ is yet to provide a single evidence that this migration existed” you’ll continue to run as a Kaputt Schalleplatte.

  11. The presence of I-M223 in modern Serbs is only hypothetical
    18-646-2 M E-M35 v I2-M223 Rilić, Kupres Bosanska Krajina Bosnia and Herzegovina 43° 54′ 46.8″ N, 17° 15′ 50.4″ E
    and I apologize because I didn’t find mt U5b3 that it seemed to me to be in a print I did of the paper, actually U5b2b. Of course with the full data I’d be able to say more. Interesting that there are two H41a which is the haplogroup of my maternal grandmother. In Serbia it is present above all the recent H41a3. Only H41* (MRCA 13600ybp) is above all in Italy and France.

  12. @Matt

    The complex specifics aside, can’t that more “western” pull also already plausibly be due to the cline we see in the IA Balkans from southern Greece to Dalmatia (HRV_MBA-IA), to an extent at least? It looks like that sort of thing might satisfy what I see in your plots too, i.e. even early empire local individuals had more northern averages in the north, more southern in the south, and that sort of difference was preserved down the line whatever the extra admixtures coming in from the south too. It looks like it depends on the assumption of whether there’s a single cline between the same Balkan and the same northern group or different clines between somewhat different Balkan groups and the same northern group?

    The unpublished Slovenian IA samples look interesting. They look more in cline with the ancient HG-richer IA Italic samples overall rather than the Croatian Dalmatian ones but there’s some apparent deviation towards the Balkan zone of less extra HG for at least one. I wonder what kind of linguistic entity, if just one since there were a few around, they might represent of the area. They seem to be more inland geographically, at least.

    This paper complements the recent Rome paper (doi.org/10.1080/03014460.2021.1944313) nicely, though that one isn’t open access unfortunately and the available supplement only has a pretty low-res PCA…

    I have to say though the Eurogenes G25 models even from a few years ago, with much fewer ancient samples at the time in the datasheet that we have now even, produced very similar results under similar assumptions to the general models I can see in the paper at first glance before reading further.

  13. @Samuel I Andrews

    The lack of Northern Italian/Iberian/Southern French- like Romans during the 1st century, not only in Rome but also in the Balkan province, is remarkable. It seems as if the Italic Romans virtually disappeared or dissolved in the East-Med population. However, it’s likely that the cremated Romans were the ones that were still Italic-like.

  14. @Forgetful, that seems possible too.

    Slightly off topic for thread, I’m still pretty puzzled by what is going on in formal stats with East Slavic group to be honest. For example, a set of comparisons of f4(outgroup,ancient/modern,Icelandic/English,Lithuanian/Ukrainian_North/Spanish_North) – https://imgur.com/a/Gw9J1HB

    (Spain North are a population who are Basque or closely related. Run on Human Origins with approximately 300,000 SNPs).

    Lithuanians are closer to most ancient populations than NW European comparisons, probably because of high WHG ancestry. But when we turn to the East Slavic populations (Belarusian and North Ukrainian), at a statistically significant level they seem more distant from or at best are at 0 with all my comparison ancient and modern populations compared to NW European pops… except for when it comes to Lithuanians and Latvia_BA. (E.g. f4(Cameroon_SMA,Yamnaya_Samara,English,Belarusian/Ukrainian_North) is 0 and f4(Cameroon_SMA,Yamnaya_Samara,Icelandic,Belarusian/Ukrainian_North) is -2 to -3).

    This is an f4 statistic, so it should be “controlling” for all kinds of drift. The common expectation is that East Slavic populatins are differentiated by having a bit more Steppe ancestry or WHG ancestry, but this doesn’t seem like it indicates in that direction really.

    (Even for f4(Cameroon_SMA,Yamnaya_Samara,English,Belarusian/Ukrainian_North) the statistic is approximately 0).

    Speaking of ancient Romans, ran another big set of f4 statistics between Italy_Imperial and comparison groups – https://imgur.com/a/nMlFNLO

    It really does seem like Italy_Imperial is basically continuous with Sicily and Southern Italy, where there are just very few significant statistics of the form f4(Outgroup,Target,Italy_Imperial,Italian_South/Sicilian). This is particularly obvious in because even the reasonably similar Ashkenazi Jews and Cypriots generate plentiful significant statistics comparing f4(Outgroup,Target,Italy_Imperial,Ashkenazi/Cypriot). About the only tenative differences between Italy_Imperial and Southern Italians is very slightly more Armenian related in Italy_Imperial, and possibly some North African deflating other things in present day Southern Italians. These are the only populations with consistent 0 stats. It seems like a relatively striking example of continuity.

  15. Good observation, Tiger. It is similar situation in Balkan, former Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, where allegedly ‘Slavics’ migrated from somewhere in the 7th c.AC. Not only that no single written record exists for this migration then it is unknown what’s happened with previous, high density population. This population gave few dozens of Emperors (Diocletian, Constantine, Justinian, Jovian, Julian, etc) and the elite Roman legions. Suddenly, they disappeared from the face of the Earth after ‘Slavics’ arrival, leaving them their properties, lands, houses, without any fighting. It is unknown where they left but it is strange that they took their graves with them as well! Some could say that they were assimilated by Slavics but it would be some genetic imprint and at least some remnants of their language, spoken by many Emperors. However, wiki says:

    “Dacian is an extinct language, generally believed to be Indo-European… (MT – they are actually Goths! Gothic sc. ‘Germanic’ origin and their language were falsified)

    Illyrian language… relation to other Indo-European languages—ancient and modern—is poorly understood due to the paucity of data and is still being examined…”. Etc.

    It was only 13 centuries ago. Only remaining option is that ‘Slavics’ have eaten them all, but still, some bones should remain. It means that this option also should be excluded.

    So, so-called ‘Slavic’ migration is a cornerstone of the world history falsifications. The world history should be rewritten, since Lepenski Vir, Vinca, Aryans, sc. ‘ancient’ Greece, Roman Empire, etc. Genetics alone cannot give all answers. It must be combined with the language, mythology, anthropology and toponyms. Earlier, I proposed here a methodology which incorporates all previous and demonstrated this on the case of Aryans. While some countries already abandoned this elusive migration, the resistance is still strong. Some, however, find their happiness by simply pushing their heads in the sand and ignoring such discussions.

  16. Matt, on that subject, aren’t all those |Z| > 2 results you highlighted also indicating why Eurogenes’ G25 is also able to detect that “Balto-Slavic drift”, whatever exactly causes it?

    Do you have any of the form (Cameroon, test, ROU_C_o, DEU_Blatterhohle_MN), test = various (the more the better) northwestern and northeastern populations, by the way?

  17. @Forgetful, I don’t think the comparisons of Rou_C outlier vs Blatterhohle_MN were producing very strong Z stats actually, but I’ll have a look later and try again.

    Yeah, the shift toward LVA_BA (“Balto-Slavic drift”) certainly seems to be something that’s visible in f-stats on the v44.3_HO_public data. I want to see if it replicates with more SNPs on v44.3_1240K_public, though that dataset seems very limited in North Eastern European populations so this may not be possible. The appearance of it in the Global_25 dataset does seem to reflect something that’s also obvious in f stats though. (I just don’t understand why, if it’s just extra drift, the f4 stats don’t seem to “cancel” it and end up with non-significant Z comparing e.g. English/Icelandic with Ukrainians/Belarusians.)

  18. I wrote before about Alexander Karanovic (aka the Great) and one point in time is very indicative and can contribute to the discussion which includes sc. Indo-European (or Indo-Germanishe or Yamnaya) language.

    Alexander’s dynasty started in 814 BC. A ruler of Pelonia which was considered a part of Dardania, from the capital of Bela Zora (present-day Veles, in English – White Dawn) sent a nobleman to the town of Voden (in Serbian – Watery, present Edessa) to be a Karan. The town was famous with a series of springs and waterfalls. The ‘Karan’ was an old Serbian title which assumed the administration of some region or town or as military commander of certain region. The Karan, who settled in Vodena, acted as a mayor of the town. The old name of the Aegean Sea also had a Serbian name – Belo More (White Sea). The Karan wasn’t hereditary title but, in this case, Karan’s sons inherited his position and administered the town for almost 100 years, until the year 710 BC.

    So, this is a good point in time to see what was the situation in this part of the world before the ‘cosmopolitism’ described in the paper?

    • Greeks still didn’t get into the history
    • Greeks didn’t have neither the alphabet nor literacy
    • There were no Bulgarians, no Albanians, no Hungarians, no Romanians, no Romans, no Germans, no Croats, no Latin, no ‘Slavics’. On the north up to the Baltic, in today’s Germany, on the west up to the Adriatic lived only Serbian speaking tribes. They also lived in Asia Minor. Only language spoken between Peloponnese and Baltic was Serbian.
    • Aryans were already settled in South Asia
    • It was about 350 years after the battle for Troy and 500 years before Alexander. Greeks did not know yet for Mt. Olympus; how could they have had Olympus mythology at the time of the Trojan battle?
    • At that time was written law in Sard, in the stone in principalities Phrygia, Lycia and Lydia (identical to Etruscan and deciphered by S.Bibija) populated with Serbian speaking tribes which came from the central Balkan.

    In 710 BC, the Karan Perdika took the title of king and created his kingdom. The name ‘perdika’, until recently in western Serbia, was the name for a stone or wooden fence around the property. Perdika gave the name to his kingdom – Makedonia. Why this name? This region was very rich in poppy cultivation. Poppy in Serbian is ‘mak’. Makedonia means a ‘poppy valley’. For long time, ancient writers tried to find some tribe in old Macedonia by which they would be named but they found nothing.

    So, the question is – where is the Indo-European (formerly Indo-Germanishe) i.e. Yamnaya language here? Where is the Balto-Slavic?

    For those, who still haven’t heard, a few archaic tunes from Alexander’s homeland.

  19. Razib Khan is from Bangladesh, formed in US, and certainly he doesn’t know anything of European history, but why he lets these bullshits be published in its blog? Unfortunately these bullshits bring to wars frequently.

  20. R U OK, Gio? Did you hit the wall of history falsifications and still feel dazed? You did not say anything, so you can stick the label you have used on your ‘comment’. You may say a word or two about Latin language and Albanians in 814BC? It is only important to prevent any war. You could point your finger on one or a couple things which could cause it?

    Of course, the other Balkan people have both, but they are much younger. It is interesting that the singer holds the Serbian instrument – gusle, which is protected in Unesco. This instrument was used for hundreds of years by Serbian singers to secretly sing epic poems far in mountains and far from Turks. Serbs have several thousands of such epic songs. The reference (Before the Turkish occupation of Albania) is probably a joke. There was no Albania, it was Serbia. Albanians stepped first time on the Balkan soil from Sicily led by Byzantine general Djordje Maniac in 1043 AC. This general died and (future) Albanians could not go back. Today’s Albania was Serbia and they asked the Serbian ruler to remain and to work as shepherds. They got permission to stay on mountain Jablanica (still has this Serbian name) and to pay symbolic taxes for grazing (some number of sheep). It was regulated by law. They remained on the mountain for 350 years until Turks came. Albania did not exist until the 20th century. Albanians joined Turks and were harassing and killing Christian Serbs for the following 400 years. After unsuccessful Serbian uprising in 1692, many Serbs had to escape from the heart of Serbia – Kosovo. Some Albanians came from mountains to the fertile Kosovo plain 300 years ago and took Serbian land and houses. Before that there was not one Albanian in Kosovo. In this space of 90km in radius, Serbs have 2000 churches and monasteries, some 1000 years old. Albanians have no SINGLE monument in Kosovo. They haven’t built anything, they have no single monument anywhere. The greatest hero whom Albanians celebrate is Skanderbeg, who is actually a Serbian knight and his whole family was Serbian. Etc, etc,.. Albanians are you’re the biggest fallacy, Gio. Open up your eyes, then you’ll realize here I stand with my everlasting patience. Gusle:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=gusle+pictures&rlz=1C1GCEA_enAU802AU802&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=c12C19nF1ub_qM%252C2OVtz4nKrx2S_M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQsAhdbIO5a1ipYV1sahgGVt2ctpg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHx6mv-OTyAhXLfn0KHXKTDV4Q9QF6BAgNEAE#imgrc=wFL6Xp_2iJwsZM

    FT: Great song, a big fun of classics, especially opera. As a student, spent couple months in Milano (and skiing in Bolzano-Merano area, Val Senales glacier), many times visited La Scala. Singing opera with drunkards after midnight at the train station in Modena (or Carrara?), etc.

    For you, first – the best Serbian waltz with a photo of Danube waves. While listening, just remember that these waves are meters from Vinca, the cradle of the oldest European civilisation and the oldest European language.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD7iUoJP5pc

    Second – a well-known landscape where Raseni came after the Trojan battle and before founding with other three tribes the city of Rome (i.e. Ruma).

  21. I don’t disagree with all what you say, only with the fact that what you say isn’t true (Albanians didn’t come from Sicily, but some groups migrated to Italy after the Turkish conquest, of course mingling with Italians, so the Albanian intake is very few at the autosomal level and a few also the Y-s), and I am not against the war, in fact I write from so long that the unique salvation for Europe is in the alliance with Russia and its atomic arsenal. But the truth, the historic and also the genetical truth is the first step, and in what you say there is nothing reliable.The risk is that all Europe becomes a great Serbia.

  22. There are just a few sketches about this group without faith, culture and history. They spent about 200 years in Sicily where they came from Caucasus via S.Arabia, etc. Very boring stuff. Just forget it. It is disappointing that you did not point any incorrect thing. At least, anything about the Latin language. I told ya, people lived in Vinca (because of its microclimate) and at some stage moved in all directions carrying the language with them as far as China, Vladivostok and Japan (they have few hundreds of Serbian words). I already mentioned that all sc. Slavic languages evolved from Serbian. Sanskrit is also one offshoot localised in SA. Agree for Russians, they also originated in Vinca (btw, do you know the origin of the word – Europe?).

  23. Thanks for this link to the great Russian baritone Dmitri Khvorostovskij, dead too soon (my son is a baritone, and we know him very well), but what you say on history and the rest is a pure madness. I think that at this point there are no books for you. I don’t answser your questions? The answers are in every book of history, linguistics etc.

  24. PS-to-Gio: The list of villages around Verona which had and some probably still have Serbian names: Slavina, Luga, Bojan, Paljani, Slavino di Marko, razv: Prun, Vale,Plenina-Planina, Turija, Lugan, Sirmi-Srem, Rečan, Gugolaga, Kijevo, Močuga, Poveljana, Mužikona, Struga, Rubana, Orzere, Ošenjega, Valdonega, Grad, Leh, Domajara, Veriga, Mazurega, Tredespina, Ortigora, Salo, Paji, Zasama, Varana.

    Close to the lake Como is a mountain Cernobio (i.e. Crnova) and a little river Bregija so as Medvica, Dol, Mir, Stra, Movata, Milica. Etc, etc, etc…

    I can give you a list of few dozens of old Serbian tribes who lived in Italy. What is the meaning of Schiavone? Have a look the wiki reference ‘Schiavone’ and take into consideration that no Slavs existed at that time. Have a look a list of people with this surname. And, one single example of ‘madness’? Europe?

  25. Read te last post of Hunter Provyn in “Haplogroup J-L283” in Facebook posted this night and you’ll realize the origin of hg. I-L681 in Serbia etc and even a Jew admits that the Jewish haplotype I-Y23115 introgressed in Europe what I am saying for 15 years gaining the banishment from all the blogs controlled from Jews… but at last the “victory” is mine, as I think pretty in all the rest.

  26. I will read it. “There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship” (eupedia). In the past, I wrote about the bull worshiping which originated in Danube plain, impersonated in the first Aryan leader who led expedition to India and on his way back brought (future) Jews and Greeks from Mesopotamia to Egypt (they were expelled later). He founded the city of Babylon and Bagdad got its name after him (Bak= bull, in Serbian, dat-given). He was later considered as a deity in sc. ‘ancient’ Greece (Dionysius) i.e. Romans’ Bacchus, etc, etc. There are several percentages of J2 among modern Serbs.

    Considering that you cannot point on any ‘madness’ let’s do something else. The creator of Anatolian hypothesis (Colin Renfrew) expressed a high level of academic integrity and waived his sc. Anatolian IE theory. We are witnessing that sc. Yamnaya (Kurgan) hypothesis is dismantling before our own eyes. So, there will be soon a ‘mainstream’ vacuum. Can you present in 5-6 lines your brief theory, which will include the genetics and the language(s) (other details later) and starting from the height of the Ice Age or from the beginning of (European) cultural history. We can follow indigenous Euro genes and register incoming genes from the outside of Europe. You can put on this some working title, e.g. Gio’s jewellery, or IE bunga-bunga (hope Silvio will recover), etc).

  27. “He founded the city of Babylon and Bagdad got its name after him (Bak= bull, in Serbian, dat-given)”. Milan, please stop your madness. I won’t reply anymore to you. Baghdad is from Iranian language and does mean “given from God” as in Hebrew you could say “Nethanyahu” as the nickname of a notorious politician or in Italian Deodato etc etc.
    This is my last post in the Hunter Provyn’s thread I quoted above, and there is all my theory:
    “Of course people always went and come, and to understand each of these movements isn’t easy, but I-L460 was an European hunter-gatherers haplogroup, probably WHG, and all came from there. I think the same happened for R1 (at least from Villabruna 14000 years ago, but hg. I was in Southern Alps among the Villabrunas already 17000 years ago). In the case of I-L223 it is easy to understand that, i.e. the expansion from Mesolithic Italy, but we’ll understand soon also the rest”.

  28. Ok, I am finishing right here. You could give instead your version of 814 BC in Europe. You said nothing about the language. Iranian? (=Aryan)? For your theory you could recycle the acronym OIT (out of india) and use it as ‘Out of Italy’. Ciao!

  29. In fact OIT does actually mean “Out of Italy”, at least R1b1 from 14000 years ago (Villabruna, Belluno, Italy), certainly I-M223 (Mesolithic Italy the oldest aDNA found so far), and I think many others. In my old theories there were also other haplogroups, both Y and mt. All what I foresaw has been so far demonstrated and you may find the data everywhere. I criticized also the sc “Out of Africa”, but the first to say that was Shi Huang and not me. Of course I said more also about many “conspiracies”, above all that of the Harvardians’, and some of them are becoming clear to more and more people. I am patient. From India came out many things, perhaps not recent R1a, but many of the oldest ones.

  30. Thanks Roger. In the ww1 Serbia lost 1/3 of the total population, i.e. 52% of male population plus 8% crippled. In the ww2 Yu lost about 1.8 million, probably 90%+ Serbs. When Turks came to Balkan in the 14th c.AC, it was the same number of Serbs and English, now, there are almost 150 million English and their descendants around the world and about 13 million of Serbs.

  31. The first sound things you write from when I know you. This is the question. Perhaps that English descendants are only 150 million is a few, because certainly there are almost 150 million Italians, and the English history in these last centuries has been so long more powerful than ours. I state that I have a theory of my own about history, and, even though I am a right wing, I wouldn’t ever have done the war against Russia, and never the WWI, with London Path and the “vittoria mutilata”. Better than Germans and French and English annihilated themselves. Also Giolitti thought so, but probably what masters the history from behind, and a few know also now, did that. But the true question is to understand who are “English”, “Italians”, “Serbs”, “Jews” etc , and even “Dalmatians”, just what we are trying to understand with our inquires.

  32. I promised above that I will stop replying to Gio considering that he could not point on any ‘madness’ reference. My writing was not directed only on him, but I will make an exception re: the name of Babylon. Sc. Iranian language(s) are not older than 2000 BC. It is actually, the Aryan language and Aryan language was sc. IE language, i.e. Vinca (later Serbian) language which localised version in India is Sanskrit. And the counterexample, Italian word Deodato, consists of two words, both Serbian. If someone read my first comment about the Europe (earlier asked several times about the meaning but none responded, probably happy with wiki explanation) he/she could conclude that in 814 BC did not exist, neither Latin nor Italian and that these languages had to evolve from some existing language, not from the pra-language.

    I guess there is a reason why Razib did not open OT and this thread is a sort of backup OT. Unlike what someone mentioned that he may not know the Euro history I think that he knows very well and that he is aware of history falsifications.

    It is a very deep topic about world wars where for e.g. Russia lost 27 millions of people. There is also an estimate that more than 30 million of Serbs got killed in the first millennium, which history is heavily falsified. Only those who can see further from their nose, understand that both world wars were inspired by British, and executed by dumb Germans, when the Empire was in crisis and when they organised a slaughterhouse where Germans, Russians and others would slaughter each other.

  33. “And the counterexample, Italian word Deodato, consists of two words, both Serbian”.
    Latin “deus” > *deiwo- (old Indian devà-h, av. daeva-, osk. deìvaì etc.)
    Latin “datus” past participle of “do” > PIE *deh3- as to Mallory&Adams
    have nothing to do with Serb, if not that both Latin and Slav are IE languages. We don’t know which language was spoken at Vinca. If it were PIE I’d be glad, because my theory, from so long, is that it didn’t come from Yamnaya but closer to the Alps and central Europe, and anyway you aren’t the master of Vinca or of people who lived in the Italian refugium. Every people formed through many intakes, anyway your Y, in great part, and your language arrived in Serbia very recently and don’t continue what was there at the Vinca times if not in a little part.

    I of course think that English (what I resume in the “English Crown”) was one of the heads of the eagle, but the other was the “Finance”, formed not only from English but above all from others.

  34. “The totally absurd thesis of the so called ‘late arrival’ of the Slavs in Europe must be replaced by the scenario of Slavic continuity from Paleolithic, and the demographic growth and geographic expansion of the Slavs can be explained, much more realistically, by the extraordinary success, continuity and stability of the Neolithic cultures of South-Eastern Europe (the only ones in Europe that caused the formation of tells) (Alinei 2000a, 2003b).”

    http://www.continuitas.org/intro.html and other.

    ‘Old Indian’ is Sanskrit, i.e. Aryan language. What is the connection btw sc. ‘Old Indian’ and Latin? Maybe Aryan language? Who were Aryans? When, where and how was Latin created? Which language was spoken in Europe in 814 BC? A tip – I already mentioned couple words (Bela Zora, Belo More) which remained the same until today. Where is the history btw Villabruna (17000BC) and 814 BC? Where is the culture, language, mythology, cities? Where people lived during the Ice Age up to 12000 BC? In Alps? Where and when R1a split from R1b and where is R1a? What is the meaning of the name Bergamo? Where was created sc. Indo-European language and in which period?

    Yep, the amalgamation of ‘Finance’ and the House of Lords.

  35. “Razib Khan is from Bangladesh, formed in US, and certainly he doesn’t know anything of European history”…..um, what?

  36. I know very well Mario Alenei, who was an Italiam and wrote above all in Italian. I may read his books, you probably don’t. He linked also Etruscan with Hungarian, a completely foolish theory. We know very well which group Hungarian language came from and also the migration to central Europe, even though Hungarians of to-day have very little of that in the DNA.
    Of course a continuity there was in Europe, at the Y level certainly hg I2 (and I1, the oldest one found so far in Iberia 10000 years ago), a few C1 and H now. But of course R1b1 at least from 14000 years ago already was in the Alps. Stop.

  37. John Massey
    SEPTEMBER 6, 2021 AT 12:09 AM
    “Razib Khan is from Bangladesh, formed in US, and certainly he doesn’t know anything of European history”…..um, what?

    I think I know very well who you are. Of course your intent is to make me ban also from here, but I think that Razib Khan is more intelligent than the owners of the other forums, and anyway my ideas live and fight also out of blogs. It is enough to fight people like you. Milan Todorov didn’t understand who owns the “Finance”. You very likely may answer.

  38. Gioiello Tognoni

    I have no intention to try to have you banned (I can think of some others I would be happy to see disappear, but have nothing against you), but if you are going to assert that Razib knows nothing of European history, I think I am justified in expressing surprise.

    If you think you know very well who I am, then out of interest – who am I, exactly? Do you really know? Tell everyone, please.

  39. “Haplogroup I-M438, also known as I2, is a human DNA Y-chromosome haplogroup, a subclade of Haplogroup I-M170. Haplogroup I-M438 originated some time around 26,000–31,000 BCE

    The age of R1 was estimated at between 12,500 and 25,700 BP, and most probably occurred about 18,500 years ago.[7] Since the earliest known example has been dated at circa 14,000 BP, and belongs to R1b1a (R-L754),[8] R1b must have arisen relatively soon after the emergence of R1.”

    But, all previous are not the point (for me). I am interested in the developments from the beginning of the cultural history (approx. from the end of the Ice Age, cca 10-12000 BC), not 50 or 100 K years ago.

    So, there was the genetic and linguistic continuity of I2 since the Ice Age in Lepenski Vir up to today. Because, I assert that the Proto-Slavic language is a continuation of the ancient Vinca language (I will write since when, the new name – ‘Serbian’, instead of ‘Vinca’, can be used).

    If someone is stating the discontinuity, he/she should prove that this happened and explain when, where and how this happened, what was the previous, original language, which language influenced the proto-Slavic language from which modern Slavic languages evolved and which modern language (I cannot see any in 814 BC) is a direct descendant of the language which created this discontinuation.

    I state that, instead of the mainstream term ‘Indo-European (formerly, Indo-Germanishe) language’ should be used the term – Serbian language.

    But, you will not answer these questions as you have not answered any of my previous questions.

  40. “I am interested in the developments from the beginning of the cultural history (approx. from the end of the Ice Age, cca 10-12000 BC)” – I think you need to listen to Samo Burja on Razib’s Unsupervised Learning. Just a suggestion.

  41. Gio – I understood well the ‘Finance’ but it seems that you did not understand the ‘amalgamation’.

    You will like this song in ‘Old Indian’:

  42. John Massey, what I said didn’t want to be offensive towards Razib Khan, of course, it would be counterproductive to say something against the owner of the blog who is so kind in publishing your posts. I am not fluent in English, and frequently what I write goes beyond my same intentions. I wanted only to say that what Milan Todorov writes is so out of the average knowledge of Euroepan history and out of the same linguistics taught in our universities, that I wondered that he could write that. He of course has got his frustrations, as we all too, and this is understandable, but anyway we shouldn’t be permitted to say something against “facts” even though I think that everyone has the right to give his “interpretations” of the facts. What I reproach him are just the “facts”, also in linguistics. I taught for 40 years History (beyond Italian, Latin and Geography ) in the High School and to me Milan wouldn’t have passed the Primary School.
    If you aren’t Ted the Mad, the only one who has been reading all my 20000 letters and quoted frequently them, I apologize. He, as infinite others, thinks to be a Jew, with an Y with a MRCA 1050 ybp, probably a Khazar converted, but they used their money for their dream, I wouldn’t say in this case “alla luce della ragione”.

  43. I thank you for this song in sskr, but one thing that may me consider not absurd the positions of the sc “Indian Nationalists” against the migration of IE language (and hg. R1a) from central Asia and before from eastern Europe, is just the sskr. Of course I don’t know this language as other IE language, but a person with whom I had contacts, prof Romano Lazzeroni of the Scuola Normale of Pisa, dedicated his last years to sskr studies and became fond in this. It is easy to understand the link between Latin deus < * deo-s *de(i)(w)o- and sskr deva-h both from *deiwo-s [ ei ai e; w v; o a], but perhaps 3700 ybp aren't enough for forming sskr as we know. Perhaps more.

  44. Anyway it seems that you confirm that John Massey is a nickname, otherwise why did you ask me to say who you are? You are free, and who may control your account is the owner of the blog. I am Gioiello Tognoni, from my birth.

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