Southern Italy was characterised by a complex prehistory that started with different Palaeolithic cultures, later followed by the Neolithization and the demic dispersal from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe during the Bronze Age. Archaeological and historical evidences point to a link between Southern Italians and the Balkans still present in modern times. To shed light on these dynamics, we analysed around 700 South Mediterranean genomes combined with informative ancient DNAs. Our findings revealed high affinities of South-Eastern Italians with modern Eastern Peloponnesians, and a closer affinity of ancient Greek genomes with those from specific regions of South Italy than modern Greek genomes. The higher similarity could be associated with a Bronze Age component ultimately originating from the Caucasus with high Iranian and Anatolian Neolithic ancestries. Furthermore, extremely differentiated allele frequencies among Northern and Southern Italy revealed putatively adapted SNPs in genes involved in alcohol metabolism, nevi features and immunological traits.
This paper finally seems to straightout admit that the statistics for using Greeks as a donor population can be messed up by Slavic migration. There’s heterogeneity though. For example, Maniotes are good donors to eastern Sicily. Maniotes are famous for having been pagan until the 800’s, because their godforsaken peninsula was so isolated from the rest of the world. And, in these data they seem to have less Slavic ancestry, which is what you’d expect if they were so isolated.
This explains the C6 population in Antonio et al. 2019, imho.
Does this explain why Northern Italy feels like Germany or Switzerland, but in Southern Germany I have to watch out for pickpockets? 😉
Two important highlights
“Uneven affinity between Neolithic Greeks and Southern Italians confirms the importance of post-Iron Age demographic events.
•
Shared Iran Neolithic-related ancestry suggests gene flows along the Mediterranean Sea shores that started in the Bronze Age.”
I think southern Italian samples will show this to be true when they investigate the Neolithic through the Bronze Age with aDNA. Basically they were genetically similar to the Minoans, before receiving steppe admixture.
@Jovialis
We have Neolithic and BA samples from Sicily. This isn’t the case so far. Only the MBA and LBA groups appear to get some admixture from a CHG-rich Minoan-Mycenaean like source compared to the EBA set which is mostly on a cline between Middle Neolithic Sicily and Beaker groups, to the extent that it cuts through the mainstream Etrucan-Italic IA groups too, even if it has some extra, small CHG-rich admixture. And of course contemporary southern Italy needs even more CHG-like admixture (not to mention some specifically Levant_N kind of admixture that those studies don’t seem to be able to distinguish from Anatolia_N or even try for that matter) than those groups had. There’s no reason to somehow expect Neolithic-EBA Italy to have *more* of it than what the BA (western) Aegean has so far and the samples we have so far from southern Italy argue against that too.
They also note what I mentioned above: “Overall, these results are in agreement with the detection of a small proportion of Iranian-related ancestry in Sicilian Middle Bronze Age samples (17)[, which could be tentatively linked to the spread of the Mycenaean culture (59).]”
The first quote you mention argues exactly against what you’ve been arguing for before, too, i.e. it’s clear that you definitely need important post-IA events to explain things in Italy, as all the aDNA papers have shown so far. As they also mention: “…or alternatively, that Central and Southern Italians received contributions from other different groups, possibly associated with present-day Middle Eastern or African regions (19,40,41)”
To be honest, this paper itself doesn’t seem to bring anything new to the table regarding pre-modern events (only real addition of interest is that intra-Italian comparison of some allele frequencies, as far as I can tell) and implicity ignores a lot of the aDNA studies by making little reference to them and not utilizing them that much. Just a few passing references for the most part, like the last passage above.
The first part doesn’t violate the second. Because it is implying the uneven affinity is due to Slavic admixture into Greeks. Also the study shows only Sicily and Calabria show some better fit when using African and Middle Eastern sources. Sicily and Sardinia do indeed show a BA chg pulse. As do samples in southern Iberia. Furthermore, we don’t know the range of people similar to Minoans (pre-indo european farmers with Anatolian_N +some CHG), which could include southern Italy, which is what the paper demonstrates. We need samples
Also Sarno et al. 2021 also came to a similar conclusion regarding bronze age southern Italy. So we have two works both authored by two team of prominent Italian geneticists. Thus, I don’t think it is a matter of just glossing over other studies, and I’m inclined to believe them.
Pardon me theory*, only aDNA will give us a conclusion. All we have now is speculation, I know this is a controversial topic. However, I can enjoy the fact that Raveane et al. 2022 and Sarno et al. 2021 support what I believe.
https://imgur.com/ehx19SR
Above is a link to a chart for a model I had created, which utilizes ancient Italian farmers, Yamnaya, Anatolia_BA, and Minoan to model Ancient Italians. These are all the samples that get a good fit. I downloaded and processed all of these samples myself, and ran them through Dodecad K12b. I came the idea that Minoan would be a good proxy for pre-Indo European Southern Italy, on my own. That’s why I am delighted to see that two papers also see the same thing.
“However, I can enjoy the fact that Raveane et al. 2022 and Sarno et al. 2021 support what I believe”
They really don’t. The only real clarification on the issue so far is coming from aDNA-focused studies that disagree with what you’ve argued here now and before. Those two studies only mention the existence of certain kinds of ancestries in Italy, they don’t really have much to say about their specific provenance and dating etc. There’s even mention of specific, later events (with reference to the relevant recent studies), they just aren’t commented on much. And certainly they don’t argue anything like “solely internal rearranging of ‘local’ ancestries that existed since (some point of) the Bronze Age”, which seems to be an even more extreme stance than you’ve taken before…
“All we have now is speculation, I know this is a controversial topic”
We don’t have only speculation at this point but sure, some areas are still not well-covered. Either way, you’ll permit me some major disagreements with your points in that case. The plotting of the modern Italian cline, from north to south, relative to the mainstream Italic, Etruscan and Greek samples we have so far is telling.
For the last point above: https://postimg.cc/Fdt7FX49
“They really don’t”
Are you gaslighting me?
Well, it seems you disagree with me even agreeing with the conclusion. Whatever, you didn’t know know what the highlighted comments implied. You are wrong in saying the author didn’t consider african and middle eastern dna; they do. You try to poke holes in what the authors say, implying they violate their own paper, and then you assert that they don’t agree with me. Despite the fact that it shows Minoan being using in equal proportion to my model. Despite the fact that this paper conveniently articles what I have been saying on eupedia, from reading the papers it cites. Not only are you an expert on southern Italy, you must be an expert on reading my mind, and the authors’ mind. If you don’t want to agree with me or the paper(s) I couldn’t care less.
“The plotting of the modern Italian cline, from north to south, relative to the mainstream Italic, Etruscan and Greek samples we have so far is telling.”
The paper shows the south-eastern Italians have a higher affinity to Ancient Greeks than most other modern Greeks. The reason for that is because the modern Balkans received Slavic/North Eastern European DNA in the middle ages. Ergo, the un-even affinity with Neolithic greeks FOUND in southern Italians, and less so in modern Greeks. WHAT DO THE SAMPLES SHOW? Lets ask Dr. David Reich, because he says say steppe and Anatolia_N/CHG were the genetic profile of ancient Greeks. Some more Minoan-like without steppe. Also, Reich thinks it was Anatolians, not Levantines that made up most of the immigrants in Imperial Rome. Read about the upcoming lecture. There was indeed a CHG pulse in the BA. Ancient Italians, including modern ones can indeed be modeled with Minoan-like components. Where is the disagreement with mainstream papers? Patterson confirms that CHG has been coming into the region for that past 10,000 years!
^^What am I saying, I am sure you have a bone to pick with that lecture as well 😉
Say it ain’t so!
@Jovialis
“You are wrong in saying the author didn’t consider african and middle eastern dna; they do.”
I didn’t say that, I quoted them saying the exact opposite above in fact. My complaint was more about this paper not really doing much with the aDNA we have been getting.
“Despite the fact that it shows Minoan being using in equal proportion to my model”
Their Apulian model is basically French-like + Minoan-like + a little something Basal. This is a huge abstraction of course and tells us very little overall. Again, we have a lot of aDNA data now, why not utilize it and just give us…this?
“Also, Reich thinks it was Anatolians, not Levantines that made up most of the immigrants in Imperial Rome”
We’ll see what exactly they argue but that seems to be the case. It’s generally the more northern/Anatolian-like than the more southern/Levantine-like parts of the Near East (though we can see obvious representatives of the latter too). I actually argued as much in our previous interaction about imperial Rome here, anyway. But at least now you’re arguing that you do need populations with higher CHG than found so far even in the BA Aegean, let alone BA Italy to be involved.
As long as you accept all those later, obviously quite important influences in Italy the aDNA papers are showing, I’m fine with your whatever specifics really.
“Their Apulian model is basically French-like + Minoan-like + a little something Basal. This is a huge abstraction of course and tells us very little overall. Again, we have a lot of aDNA data now, why not utilize it and just give us…this?”
Because the fit is good, and the scenario is plausible. Furthermore, there is a reason why the affinity is uneven, and more pronounced in south-eastern Italians. Both Minoans and Yamnaya were both bronze age cultures. Minoans is merely what we call the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Crete, thanks to Sir Arthur Evans. We don’t know what they called themselves. We know that they were mostly Anatolia_N +about 15% CHG. The Neolithic Greek samples are also very similar to them (more than even Greeks). Southern Italy is within range of these people to plausible argue they lived in the south. We find Minoan artisans traveling as far as Egypt to create works of art before the bronze age collapse. Does that mean that is where the story ends, no I don’t think so. My model shows that the eastern Mediterranean immigrants are modeled as mostly Anatolia_BA. That is something that you also see come up in southern Italy, however, it isn’t as dominate as Minoan, in the model.
While I do think historical events had some influence on southern Italy, we see that Sicily and Calabria indeed are better fit with a little extra African and middle eastern; I think this is easily attributed to the Moors. We don’t know what the pre-indo european inhabitants of south eastern Italy looked like. We have Daunian samples, but these people were LATE bronze age invaders; there were people there before them. I’d wager the people before them were these minoan/steppe admixed people like the ones found right on the other side of the Adriatic.
Imperial Era Eastern Med people showing Anatolia_BA as a major component. FYI Greek Islanders look very similar.
https://imgur.com/fzyXPiK
Now, we use the same model with modern Italians. Obviously not perfect, but telling imo.
https://imgur.com/yQMXfCW
Now here we have Imperial C6 Roman, who resemble modern Southerners, who resemble the minoan/steppe people. R437, the Prenestini “outlier” resembles this profile. Frankly, I think a lot of the demographic shift in Rome happened once Southern Italy was unified, and people like R437 started migrating north. Hence why when by Late Antiquity, when all of the C5 and C4 immigrants fade away, Rome is repopulated by people like those in C6. They were “natives” to the south, imo.
https://i.imgur.com/5TO9LC8.png
“Again, we have a lot of aDNA data now, why not utilize it and just give us…this?”
This literally in the abstract of the study:
“To shed light on these dynamics, we analysed around 700 South Mediterranean genomes combined *with informative ancient DNAs*. Our findings revealed high affinities of South-Eastern Italians with modern Eastern Peloponnesians, and a closer affinity of ancient Greek genomes with those from specific regions of South Italy than modern Greek genomes. ”
They didn’t just arbitrarily choose Minoan to be the proxy, that is what their analysis brought them to. Just like they way I didn’t specifically choose Minoan in Dodecad K12b, it is what the algorithm chooses out of all of the aDNA. But the difference is, Raveane et al. 2022 used more sophisticated methods, and tools, and a large data set.
@Twinkie,
Is that your idea of collegial humor?
@Angela,
I find his joke to be rather awkward, especially for a website dedicated to scientific discussion.
I mangled that – I meant Southern Italy with the pickpockets, not Southern Germany (Verzeihung, Bayern!).
Regarding Southern Italy/Sicily and Greece; I don’t think that both will be able to be modelled with the average of exactly the same Roman Imperial population we have from Rome as a source, and then adding sources from to the north (Present day Northern Romance/Slavic/Germanic speaking areas). Southern Italy/Sicily will need more North African and probably EEF related ancestry, while Greece will need more CHG/Iranian related ancestry than Sicily does.
If I plot the stats f4(Iran_Wezmeh_N,Europe_LNBA;X,Y) against f4(Cameroon_SMA.SG,Europe_LNBA;X,Y) against each other (and using X = Northern Italy as a simple centre of the axes), then: https://imgur.com/a/5MzJXi2
Sicily looks like they need a source that is richer in EEF/African (either or both) than what can work for Greeks. This could’ve come in separately as an extra pulse during the Middle Ages/Late Antiquity or later than the Roman Empirethough; not enough samples to know.
@Jovialis
We’ll just agree to disagree until we get more samples I guess and see how things pan out.
I’ll just repeat that I find much of your general argument implausible which seems to boil down to this when you’ve put it in more succinct form: “Imho, we ultimately will see that populations in the south, modeled a two-way of Steppe like plus minoan, are primarily responsible for pulling modern Italians to their current position, from Etruscans and Italics. It was a local internal migration within Italy, with a population that has been there since the Early Bronze Age.”
@Forgetful,
I do not think it is implausible, considering the very same dynamic played out across the Adriatic. You can literally see the Balkans (Albania) from the coasts of southern Italy. In fact, IA_Balkan samples overlap with Italians from modern Tuscany to southern Italy.
https://imgur.com/68hqRhy
Also, why is the ENTIRE Italian cline “east” of Latins/Etruscans to Minoans? You can’t explain all of it by just saying Imperial era immigrants. Some of that could be due to genetic drift; it is not always admixture involved. Antonio et al. already shows that these C6 people I am describing replaced the population, by and large by the middle ages. A lot of that happened in Italy. For example, my father’s town was sacked, enslaved, de-populated, and abandoned for 300 years before it was re-founded in the 1200s AD by Federico II. The people who lived there could have been a lot different from than my father’s people, who knows.
Also, that doesn’t deny the historical events that followed. I just think it is kind of odd to expect every single person in Italy from top to bottom to be genetically similar to Etruscans… That is the error is see in some analysis. Why would people in Puglia be Etruscan like, when right across the Adriatic they are steppe/minoan? (See my comments above regarding Daunians) Especially considering the fact that we have samples from other pre-Italic era, like C_Italian_N which could be modeled as 95% Central Anatolia Farmer plus 5% WHG. It is reasonable to think that farmer south of them could have had more CHG on a cline:
@Matt
Check out my model using the original Dodecad population:
https://imgur.com/qu2Su3W
It shows that the South/Sicily does need a bit a Iberomaurusian to fit with the Minoan/Steppe proposition. They also require a bit of Anatolia_BA. Ergo, the model does account for other influences besides Minoan/steppe.
But also, check out the Modern Greek and Balkan samples.
Another interesting observation, Southern Italy, and IA Balkans with the same model (K8)
https://imgur.com/FKWuBFd
Here are modern Greeks and Greek Islanders with the same model:
https://imgur.com/aRRsEaN
Just want to point out again that the East med immigrants look like the Greek Islanders:
https://imgur.com/fzyXPiK
Here is another model I made prior to the K8 version, that models Europeans:
https://imgur.com/DeHJsK7
This model seems to work well with Europeans particularly, since the fit changes pretty significantly with other populations.
@Jovialis
“Also, why is the ENTIRE Italian cline “east” of Latins/Etruscans to Minoans? You can’t explain all of it by just saying Imperial era immigrants. Some of that could be due to genetic drift”
Well, why did that “drift” make the whole cline consistently eastern of the IA samples, exactly how extra combined northern (Celtic-Germanic, the latter half plausibly overrated in some of the models of the aDNA papers so as not to repeat that argument) and eastern (Aegean-Anatolian-Levantine) admixture would, at different amounts for different parts of the cline? The latter seems like a simpler explanation considering the various northern and eastern individuals we see…
I did bring up the potential importance of Balkan or even east Italian/west Adriatic populations in our previous discussion fwiw. It’s just that when you’re arguing they “overlap” modern Italians – the ones we currently have don’t, they’re still more EEF-rich overall and it remains to be seen if those other Balkan samples are consistently more eastern or if they’re just drawn to the center of the PCA there if they’re projected onto the rest – you are basically excluding the actual mainstream central Italian population we do have and argue about either purely Balkan ancestry or the sort of outlier we see so far only in the Adriatic coast of Italy. I’m certainly not discounting those though.
“I just think it is kind of odd to expect every single person in Italy from top to bottom to be genetically similar to Etruscans”
That’s not something I have personally disagreed with before or now. We do see what the post EBA Sicily_MLBA population looks like after all and it’s not Etruscan-like at all and definitely has CHG-rich ancestry from some kind of source (the current paper links it potentially to the contemporary Aegean too, ok, maybe it’s even “local” instead). But the resulting population is not Minoan-like either, let alone Anatolia_BA-like, it’s quite a bit more “northwestern”.
Show me a recent and relevant academic study that specifically uses Levantine to model Italians. the only one I can think of is Posth et al. 2021, and that was for modeling Tuscans (which is beyond stupid imo) Furthermore, they couldn’t even point specifically to the Levant. In fact, David Reich is clear that he thinks they were Anatolian. As far as I know, Anatolia_BA only has 6% “Levantine farmer” according to Lazaridis et al. 2017. Every single other study I have seen used CHG/Iran_N; not Levantine. Do you think CHG/IN and Levant_(N?) are one in the same? They are not. That is why they used Iberomaurusian, because Levantine is distinguished by having some Iberomaurusian, when you model them as mostly Anatolia_N… So yeah. Is there *some* Levantine, probably; is it a substantive and formative population that has been used to model Italians in academic studies, no.
@Jovialis
I argued the same above, I mean you read the comments. Looking at the Imperial set a while back and the modern populations too (Italians, Greeks, Jews), I pretty much argued the same – that the input in Europe overall seems to come more from the more northern parts – the Aegean-Anatolian-Transcaucasian (though Syria will also need sampling too) area – rather than the more southern, Levantine ones. Nonetheless there seems to be some of the latter too, quite obviously, and it’s obviously in different amounts in different regions. Parts of southern Italy and Sicily might have been impacted more directly too with prior events, e.g. Punic-Phoenician influence so that complicates things in these regions.
The opposite, probably expectedly, seems to be true for European Jewish groups where there’s more substantial Levant-looking admixture, more of it in them than in European groups they’re even more “northern” compared to (e.g. more “northern” Ashkenazi vs more “southern” Dodecanese).
Either way, seems like a weird specific argument, a bit irrelevant to that whole “internal rearranging” argument and how the later clusters came above almost overwhelmingly due to internal movements going back to the EBA, drift etc.
@Twinkie,
Great. You made that even more insulting to Italians.
What a great group you have here.
Out.
A big part of comedy is delivery, sorry Twinkie, but your ethnic-joke as DOA. By the way, I like the username, is that the top cuisine in the trailer park?
Do you know a lot of Asians in the trailer park?
You must be new here.
No, but I do live in a well-to-do majority Asian/white community actually. Mostly Koreans, and Japanese.
I’ve been a lurker for sometime, and I comment on Razib’s blog often on eupedia. Though I don’t read the comments, because the article is enough to satisfy me interest.
At any rate, I think your joke was just some contrived racist garbage that was poorly delivered, and yes Asians can be racist too:
https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/FOID/Reading%20Room/Litigation_Release/Litigation%20Release%20-%20The%20Strategic%20Consequences%20of%20Chinese%20Racism%20%20201301.pdf
Author Alessandro Raveane’s summary of this paper – https://twitter.com/Raveancic/status/1540114660988436488?cxt=HHwWkICymfqHy98qAAAA
Good try (of course Asians can be racist – they are more racist than whites, at least publicly on surveys – although revealed preferences – e.g. housing – are pretty clear that whites, esp. liberal whites, are pretty darn racist). You wrote “trailer park,” though. because you assumed I was a downscale white. You are the “racist” here.
Explain to me how my joke was “racist” (garbage, okay – if you didn’t find it amusing, you didn’t find it amusing). Are Northern Italians of a different race than Southern Italians (or even Greeks/Balkan people)? It seems to me I am a latitudinist more than a racist (though in America I prefer Southerners over Northerners, my wife excepted).
Also, have you ever been to Milan and then been to Palermo and Naples?
Back when I was briefly a big swinging you-know-what, I used to get my suits tailored in Naples (and London). One of the tailors in Naples told me the first time I visited him, “Sir, when you leave my shop, put your watch away and keep your wallet safe. This isn’t Switzerland. There are pickpockets here.”
Those darn Neapolitans are pretty darn racist against themselves, I guess.
I guess you could imagine make a comment that asks a rhetorical question if an ancestry pulse from the Middle East makes Southern Italians pickpockets and have it not be racist, somehow?
It would be like North Koreans were found to have a little more North Asian genetics than South Koreans, and you questioned if this was what made North Koreans have a servile dictatorship of thieves, and whether this was due to the infusion of North Asian blood and the traits of those people and the general barbarism of the Tatar. Not necessarily racist. Because you could be talking purely culturally.
It seems that modern italian cline roughly runs from IA Latins to Bronze Age Aegean. Which makes sense. It will be interesting to see how southern italic tribes (Oscii) will fit in this model, but I suspect they could sit somewere in between IA Latins and Myceneans/Bronze age Aegean.
Did it seem like a rhetorical question? People ought to learn to take a joke. If not funny, move on instead of lobbing “Racist!” faux outrage like some sort of SJWs. It seems these days the truer the joke, the greater the outrage.
Some readers clearly didn’t get that the joke was ultimately aimed at nordicists.
That doesn’t even make sense. If they were so servile, they wouldn’t be thieves. Criminals tend to be transgressive, not servile to authority (one of the rules for the Russian mafia – “thieves within the code” – is to never cooperate with the authorities).
Besides, based on the wheat-growing vs. rice-growing hypothesis, southern Koreans would be the more collectivist (or “servile”) people, not the northerners: https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.1246850
@twinkie, in that frame of the example the common people are servile, the thieves are at the top. To have a personality that is cringingly servile at the bottom and then autocratic once in power is often the old European racist “oriental” stereotype.
“Some readers clearly didn’t get that the joke was ultimately aimed at nordicists.”
@Twinkie, fair enough. I’m actually pretty anti-woke/SJW. Hence, taking people to task instead of asking for them to just be silenced by moderators/authorities. I just thought you were being overtly racist in your comment. At any rate, crime in Southern Italy is an issue that has to due with several factors IMO. Having DNA that resembles that of the Ancient Greeks makes them pick-pockets? Okay, now I get the humor 😉 Does CHG/IN make people have more bravado? Maybe? Middle Easterners are very war-like, the Greeks were very war-like. Yamanaya were 40% CHG as well. But I do think a lot of historical events lead to why Southern Italy is not as prosperous. For one, a mass exodus of individualistic and entrepreneurial people left for new homes aboard (To the North of Italy as well). Say what you will about southern Italy, but Southern Italians especially in the Northeast of the US has have thrived. In fact, Italian-Americans (mostly southerners) make a higher income than many other ethnic groups, despite coming from nothing as poor immigrates with little education. That included ethnic groups that have been in the country a lot longer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income
To me this is an indication that is is not so much a genetic factor, but an environmental factor for the reason why the south is underdeveloped.
It also didn’t help the the United States gov’t after WWII hand-picked mafia people into position of power. Collaboration between the Mafia, and the US gov’t to invade Sicily is famously known. Thus, the reconstruction program for the South after WWII was corrupt to the core in origin. This is similar to how the US collaborated with the Taliban against the Soviets.
Nevertheless, 10% (1.5 million) of US Troops that fought in WWII were Italian-Americans.
” a mass exodus of individualistic and entrepreneurial people left for new homes aboard”
You could also say the same for the Ancient Greeks:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Greek_Colonization_Archaic_Period.png
Southern Italians and Ancient Greeks are not only similar in their genetics, but their proclivity to be diaspora and spread their cultural influence and posterity in new lands.
Modern academic Italian samples I modeled with aITA K8
https://imgur.com/a6Fvhei
Here is something I noticed about southern Italy. There is an Minoan/Anatolia_BA-cline within the Southern Italian Cluster. Anatolia_BA was the primary component of Eastern Mediterraean Imperial era immigrants. But also the primary component used to model Modern Aegean Islanders. I wonder if Ancient Aegean Islanders in the IA could be modeled similarly with Anatolia_BA as a primary component. If so, the presence of Anatolia_BA could at least partly be explained by IA Greek colonization, that had diaspora from the Aegean.
Another as that is somewhat puzzling is that this component is sporadically found throughout the whole south. Albeit a bit more often in the south-south of Italy and Sicily. I wonder if that dynamic could be explained by ultra-regionalism in the south, and the inability of people to travel very much between places throughout the Middle Ages. Thus, some towns could have had more Aegean and/or Anatolian influence than others. Thus which is why you find Anatolia_BA as much as 50% in some southern Italians, or little to none at all in others. I myself get about 5%. Given this dynamic, I think it is hard to pin down southern Italians as a whole.
Perhaps the Steppe/Minoan combo is more representative of the Ancient Achaean-like colonists and or hypothetical BA natives of southern Italy.
Minoan-Anatolian cline in Southern Italians:
https://imgur.com/CmyH381
^^I believe this reconciles the idea that minoan/steppe people may have been in BA southern Italy. While the presence of Anatolia_BA and to a lesser extent Iberomaurusian, shows there was Eastern Mediterraean and Aegean Islander influences. Elevated levels of Iberomaurusian demonstrates there is likely extra near eastern and/or north African admixture. The existence of a minoan/anatolia_BA cline found sporadically throughout the south also shows not all southerners can be modeled the same.
I also wanted to point out that I performed my model on the Medieval Ashkenazi samples that came out recently. They indeed look like they are a primarily Mediterranean (Greek/S.Italian perhaps) people mixed with Eastern Mediterranean and importantly Near Eastern sources.
https://imgur.com/Rswxx9Q
@Forgetful
I guess you missed the sentence right after that:
“However, when the affinity of Italian groups with African and Middle Eastern populations was tested, Southern Italians resulted not significantly closer to any of the two (Table S4).”
Off topic but I see that I have been banned from the site and advised to bring up this issue through a proxy if a mistake is suspected. Haven’t posted here for ages so it probably is a mistake.
@Cadecum
From what I see, S4 is with Yoruba where, relative to Lombardy, only the western Sicilian sample (it must be the usual Trapani sample that generally shows elevated North African like ancestry in all sorts of analyses with non formal stats too, compared to the other European groups of the area) has a relatively negative Z score. I don’t think it really impacts the overall discussion too much. Recent (North) African like ancestry in particular only seems consistently more elevated (but still quite low) in that western Sicilian sample, so it arguably looks also Punic/pre-Imperial to an extent, and of course European Jews.
THE FALL OF THE HOUSE DAVID
This belies the bullshit that Harvard Jews (and their lackeys also Italians) continue to do to please their Zionist funders. The farmers are called “Aegean”, not Anatolian, let alone Middle Eastern, and they mingled in the Balkans with the WHGs.
“As attested by a projection-free PCA (Figure 2B), the Meso European-like individuals from the Danube Gorges are most similar to those from Western Europe, albeit slightly shifted towards individuals from North-Eastern Europe, in line with previous reports (Mathieson et al., 2018). In contrast to the Western European individuals, their cluster appears rather diverse (Figure 2B), which likely reflects a locally large population, elevated gene flow from neighboring populations, or both. This interpretation, consistent with the idea of a partially sedentary and prosperous fishing society of the Transformation period, is corroborated by Danube Gorges individuals generally having the highest genome-wide heterozygosity levels and shortest total lengths of runs of homozygosity (ROH) among all post-LGM Meso European-like individuals (Figure 3A, B, E), albeit some individual variation. Interestingly, the three Danube Gorges individuals from the Vlasac site that fall most distantly from the other Western European Meso European-like samples on the PCA (Fig 2A, B, Figure S3B, VLASA10, VLASA32, VLASA41) were among the only four buried with disarticulated skulls” [p. 6].
https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.06.24.497512
Jovialis,
Lobbing “racist” at every little thing IS “woke/SJW.” Moreover, you still don’t get that the comparison was between two groups of white Europeans (Northern Italians vs. Southern Italians) and couldn’t be “racial” in nature.
No, you still don’t. I was slyly knocking Nordicists.
Do me a favor. Don’t keep trying to “win the internet” and move on.
Uh ok, sure, whatever who cares?
Anyways, back to the topic. He is my piece of the subject of the Southern Italian ethnogenesis:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/42655-Southern-Italian-Ethnogenesis-(My-theory)?p=650498#post650498