Within the European context, the Orkney BA stands in stark contrast as a location, at the northwestern extreme of the continent, where the majority of the genome was overwritten between the Late Neolithic and the end of the EBA but the male lineages somehow persisted. Even so, we can understand this phenomenon in terms of the same patrilocal marriage practices that we see throughout west Eurasia. The ancestral distribution in Orkney demonstrates deliberate marriage patterns involving local men and incoming women. This process of preferential assimilation seems likely to have continued for many generations, given the extent of replacement of the remainder of the Orcadian Neolithic genome.
The existence of a powerful and likely strongly hierarchical strand in Neolithic society has been proposed on the basis of the discovery of an incestuous first-degree union at Newgrange in Ireland (41) and was prefigured by earlier analyses of Ireland and other megalithic cultures in both northwest and central Europe (32, 48). Cassidy et al. (41) argue that it encompassed the whole of Ireland, adding that it may have incorporated the similar megalithic communities of Wales and Orkney, most likely originating in Brittany (1, 49). I2a1b-M423 is seen in both Mesolithic and Neolithic Ireland, and the main cluster seen in Late Neolithic Ireland, I2a2a1a1-M284—found in the putative elite lineage at Newgrange—matches an Orcadian Neolithic lineage from the Isbister Chambered Cairn (“Tomb of the Eagles”) on South Ronaldsay (Fig. 3 and SI Appendix, Fig. S13) (13). Both our data from BA Orkney and the Neolithic circumcoastal distribution of the Y-chromosome I2a1b-M423 haplogroup lend further support to this suggestion. European Neolithic society, at one extreme (but hardly peripheral) edge of its distribution, may have been patrilineal, patrilocal, and hierarchical long before the arrival of the Beaker complex and (most likely) Indo-European speech (27, 28, 31, 50).
Basically, a Y chromosomal lineage assimilated from Iberian hunter-gatherers, and assimilated into Neolithic farmers, seems to have spread over the British Isles and persisted in a part of Orkney as the dominant paternal line for 1,000 years after it was overwhelmed elsewhere.
Wrong link, Boss.
Atlantic islands, dude. And that was just one case of incest, not endemic to the kindred, so please, whatever you biases/prejudices, don’t repeat their mistake and infer it was widespread.
Even today Haplogroup I2 is the most common non-R1b haplogroup in Ireland, you see plenty of individuals with Irish surnames coming back as I2+, in comparison I1 in Ireland seems to be post-1169 (the subclades R1b-U106 seems to fit this pattern as well).
-Paul
Forget it, Paul. He does not respond to non-Anglos or non-Anglo facts. He will eff you out or ignore you rather than engage in correcting himself on these matters. Brónach, ach is fior.
I was quite pleased to see the authors here comment on why this may have happened (https://scitechdaily.com/ancient-dna-rewrites-the-history-of-prehistoric-orkney-britains-ancient-capital/):
“But why was Orkney so different? Dr. Graeme Wilson and Hazel Moore of the Orkney-based EASE Archaeology, who excavated the Links of Noltland, argue that the answer may lie in the long-term stability and self-sufficiency of farmsteads on Orkney, which the genetic data suggests may have already been male dominated by the peak of the Neolithic. When a Europe-wide recession hit towards the end of the Neolithic, they may have been uniquely placed to weather harsher times and maintain their grip on the population as newcomers arrived.”
Orkney is thought to be a place where agriculture continued longer in within Britain, apparently because the soil retained better fertility over time.
So in a way it does seem to ponentially add some evidence that may confirm the idea that very potentially, the end of Neolithic Britain was linked to the phenomenon of demographic decline due to failure of agriculture.
On topic of other comments, it reminds me a bit of how in Ireland, again, Lara Cassidy’s still embargoed thesis found some signal of excess contribution of Neolithic populations in Southwestern Ireland, and again at least one instance of an apparently surviving local I2a variant, and apparently also steppe ancestry. Relevant quotes: https://imgur.com/a/erxK4p8
Cassidy mentions 4x samples from SW Ireland from CAEBA who are enriched in Neolithic ancestry; only one of them appears to be male and has the I2a variant, while the other three are not typed and all appear to be female based on the appendix and sample list. Perhaps there would be more, with more samples.
Southwestern Ireland is I think where agriculture is again thought to have survived longer, and for the same reasons. No soil fertility depletion.
Perhaps a bigger paper on Ireland will find more data in future, and possibly explain if small resurgences of HG ancestry which set Ireland and Britain today to have more EEF than the Beaker period people had different causes (local persistence in SW Ireland vs continental migration from France in England?).
Orkney is also where the HG rich outliers in the Scotland EEF set were found…
…
Also not sure how Razib could possibly correct himself/retract on two things he didn’t comment on at all here (relative prevalence of I1 vs I2 in present-day Ireland and relative frequency of consanguinity in Neolithic Ireland)?
Paul is a serious person who has commented here very occasionally for as long as I can remember, and has never got any adverse response from the Boss on any occasion I can remember (or anyone else either), so I don’t know what is biting Adrian.
Perhaps he would be happier if Razib posted in Irish Gaelic 🙂
…to post this comment. I2 genetics in British Isles originated in Vincha. Until 2500BC, it was the only genetics there, when R1b came and drove the I2 percentage down from 100% to about 5% today. These people left so many toponyms/hydronyms (The Guardian recently named them ‘bizarre’). They spoke Vincha language which can be called Serbian considering that at the time of the first industrial revolution in Vincha (almost 10000 years ago) already existed the consonant group SRB (=Serb), how these people called themselves continuously up to today. ‘Holm’ in Orkney’s Holm of Papa (the same meaning in ‘Stockholm’ or Helm, Hlm, what was until recently the name of Balkan) is a word in this language (it is still used as – tumulus, hillock, hummock). Btw, I1 people, the nearest genetic cousins of I2, also originated in Vincha. Druids (i.e. drewids) were I2 people who practiced ceremonies under the trees (oaks) and because they had their name from this language, too. I2 people erected probably all megaliths. Finally, some US descendants of these British Isles I2 are: president Munro, Davy Crocket, Chuck Norris, Bill Gates, Elvis Presley, Ted Dunston, etc.
1 – First, ‘the British Isles’ [sic] is an obsolete modern (1707-1919) imperial term, not a neutral geographic. Which is why folks who ain’t British in these islands don’t use it. Its like folk insisting on calling USA the 13 colonies …
2 – Its extremely hard to follow the rest of your argument. However, it seems to be some form of Serbian supremacism. As any form of supremacism relies on fallacy not fact, it can be dismissed.
3 – John Massey. If you don’t understand my post, why not ask? I didn’t post AGAINST Paul, just remarked its pointless posting anything here on those matters if expecting a response or interaction from Razib Khan – well, a mannerly one anyway (considering your Irish Gaelic remark, you too). Paul’s many previous posts have rarely got ANY response from Razib. Why not? The impression is Razib does not like to be contradicted on matters on which he has pronounced yet has no competence. Thus, the responses outlined above.
Plus I’m a Gallgeoir, not a Gaeilgeoir. For the latter I refer you to Paul.
Sin é.
AD, your hostile reception will not change anything in my sympathies toward Irish (Celts). Not only because you were the main victim of the meanest nation of the world which deprived you even from your language, not only because of similar folklore and stubbornness. So, your qualification without refuting any fact does not deserve any response. But, it seems, that ad hominem attack is a regular thing on this blog what confirms that it is a social, not intellectual blog. I do agree re terms and there is so many confusing things here and elsewhere (e.g. several 000 of years backdated frequently used terms ‘indo-iranian’, balto-slavic’ or simply meaningless, e.g. ‘indo-european’). You may ignore the fact that old ‘supremacists’ have 40% on average (up to 70%) I2 gene and ask yourself is there and what is the connection with Irish I2. You can also contemplate how Celts had hundreds of the same personal names with old ‘supremacist’ (I can give you them to research) before they were forced in the 13 cAC to switch to new ‘supremacists’ names and language. Btw, I gave you a plus in your previous comment.
Lol. “Authorized” is obviously a certain Serb friend of ours being tricky.
Also,
“First, ‘the British Isles’ [sic] is an obsolete modern (1707-1919) imperial term, not a neutral geographic.”
No it isn’t, and even if it was who cares? You’re being ridiculous.
“Its like folk insisting on calling USA the 13 colonies”
What a stupid analogy attempt.
Hi Milan.
LOL. How did you know, Matt? What gave him away? [OK, file under “stupid questions”.]
If you really want to poke him, ask him about Novaxx Djokovic and the 2022 Australian Open tennis tournament.
All you’re doing is proving my point, Jason.
MT, presuming your post was for me, a few points.
1 – What hostility? If you are Authorised, I could not follow your argument, said so and that it seems to be supremacism. Those were comments, not attacks. If you perceived them as attacks, that is your issue.
2 – We’re not Celts nor were our ancestors. No matter how often anyone insists otherwise its not true and has been demonstrated to be untrue. Correct linguistically (though Goidelic is the preferred term) but not ethnically nor nationally and most especially not ‘race’. The latter applications remain firmly based in the racist imperial paradigm beloved of 19th century white ‘Anglo-Saxon’ Protestants in Britain, north America, et al. It was wrong then and wrong now, racist then and now. So why do folk insist on using it?
3 – “main victim of the meanest nation on Earth”. Well, there’s quite a long queue in that line, many holding rather more claim to that than us. I am specifically thinking of brown and black folk who were considered even lower on the totem of ‘race’ than us ‘Celts’ [sic].
Whatever about the past, matters are quite different now.
4 – Again, neither hostility nor an attack, ad hominem or otherwise. After that I again fail to understand you so cannot grasp whatever point(s) you are putting across.
AM, to simplify and cut things short, you can consider that ‘Authorized’ expresses my points (it was sent from my account). Apologies for waiting due to placing my reply in a triple moderation circle (consider that I am virtually banned, and you may not see this reply, either). In my comments I always express clear statements (thousands so far in previous years) which can be questioned or contradicted, and I never label the people. So, in the Authorized comment there are 18 (!) statements. You (or anyone else) could find one incorrect and crash the credibility of remaining, but you were unable even to identify any, correct or incorrect statement, what implies that you are not very smart (what is not necessarily a deficiency). At least, you could express some interest or curiosity in the origins of common names before the 13th cAC. I posted bellow links before in a different context, they were negatively commented but, anyway, I will repeat them again (I may not be able to comment further):
PS: To Whom It May Concern:
https://spectator.com.au/2022/01/hating-on-novak-has-become-a-national-sport/
https://www.spectator.com.au/2022/02/rackets-of-fire-djokovic-is-the-new-eric-liddell/
Off topic: In my younger years I was privileged to be the only non-Irish member (some Irish ancestry notwithstanding, because ancestry doesn’t count for anything much in cultural terms) of a band that played traditional Irish music. All of the other band members were intelligent and thoughtful Irishmen (with the odd crazy drunk guy, but there is always one of them) who were outstanding and very knowledgeable musicians. We played wonderful stuff and were very popular, but after three years of working at my day job as a civil engineer and moonlighting as a semi-professional musician, I was serially sleep-deprived and physically exhausted and had to leave them, much to our mutual sadness and regret – engineering always promised a more rewarding career than that of an impoverished itinerant musician. But being warmly welcomed and accepted into that group of smart, funny and talented people remains one of my fonder memories, and also qualifies me to be somewhat knowledgeable about Irish music traditions.
Not to put too fine a point on it, I am singularly unimpressed by a bunch of Serbs masquerading as Irish and mangling Irish culture in the process, and I will thank you to keep that rubbish to yourself in future. I have tried to tell you before about slip jigs, but that evidently fell on deaf ears. P.S. The bouzouki player could at least have tuned his tinny sounding instrument properly, or better yet have left it in Greece or Turkey.
As for Novaxx being some kind of hero of human rights, don’t make me laugh any more than you already do.
Yeah, we are social not intellectual – 不卑不亢
A song more appropriate to the topic. (Hint to Milan: it’s not in Irish. It’s not in Insular Scots either, but the subject points to the Old Norse name for the islands.)
And here’s a modern Irish song for Paul. Adrian gets nothing.
Will not have time (nor opportunity) for follow up readings/writings, especially not to distract the pre-me blog pace (1 comment/week) what, for me, would mean waiting for a month to get a turn, but just to refer once again to AM, who missed any assertion above. Based on his silence, it seems he found a common ground with a reader who was unsolicitedly critical on my music proposition. Just to say that I know personally the band singer and the band is not from a local pub than it has been performing for 30 years. The point was not a quality of tunes or the brand of instruments, there is a much bigger picture which can be seen from the clip and it is related to the thread topic. In the past Celts in one time period lived in Belgrade, they had the same names before leaving west. Even now, they are emotionally perceived as a part of Serbian diaspora. The reaction of the audience and Irish youtube comments under the song say a lot.
The referred paper symptomatically skips saying for e.g, about ‘similarities btw megalithic communities of Wales and Orkney’, about ‘I2a1b-M423 is seen in both Mesolithic and Neolithic Ireland’, ‘European Neolithic society (which one?), at one extreme (but hardly peripheral) edge of its distribution, may have been patrilineal, patrilocal, and hierarchical long before the arrival of the Beaker complex and (most likely) Indo-European speech’. Why ‘most likely’? Maybe because it would be difficult to reconcile pre-Yamnaya toponyms and names with the whole IE nonsense?
Anyway, another attempt for AM to compare the following dances played since Alexander’s time with Irish dances. Intentionally, the example is taken not from professionals than from amateurs from not so big Serbian diaspora in Australia, which the whole world could watch while dancing for several days in front of the prison where Novak was jailed, as many other his inmates who were jailed indefinitely without any court decision, a la Guantanamo Bay style (one 24y old Iranian guy has been locked there for 9 years in one room).
https://www.facebook.com/serbianfolklore.rs/videos/srpsko-kolo-u-australiji/800626610532021/
Well said, John. Thank you, actually. I refrained from commenting further as his posts are beyond bizarre. I was inclined towards less polite terms!
Well said John and thank you. I refrained from replying because his posts are beyond bizarre. You said it with more grace than I would have!