The Roman Empire expanded through the Mediterranean shores and brought human mobility and cosmopolitanism across this inland sea to an unprecedented scale. However, if this was also common at the Empire frontiers remains undetermined. The Balkans and Danube River were of strategic importance for the Romans acting as an East-West connection and as a defense line against “barbarian” tribes. We generated genome-wide data from 70 ancient individuals from present-day Serbia dated to the first millennium CE; including Viminacium, capital of Moesia Superior province. Our analyses reveal large scale-movements from Anatolia during Imperial rule, similar to the pattern observed in Rome, and cases of individual mobility from as far as East Africa. Between ca 250-500 CE, we detect gene-flow from Central/Northern Europe harboring admixtures of Iron Age steppe groups. Tenth-century CE individuals harbored North-Eastern European-related ancestry likely associated to Slavic-speakers, which contributed >20% of the ancestry of today’s Balkan people.
99 thoughts on “The genetic history of the Serbs (and proto-Serbs)”
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Gio, you did not come with a single ‘madness’ from my previous comments. Not even about Schiavone. I am glad, at least, you did not mention that Alexander was a Greek. For you, in line with one of your previous comments, while remembering Marcello at his the best in ‘I Girasoli’, one old Russian song, sang by my former neighbour.
Gioiello Tognoni
No. My real name is John Massey.
This is my true identity.
Milan – Do you know why Judith Durham left The Seekers in 1968? Because she wanted to be a jazz singer.
Bad career move, you think?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carnival_Is_Over
I don’t think to the movie “I girasoli”, which I remember very well, not only Marcello Mastroianni but also Sofia Loren, by listening to this song. It seems to me now not specifically of the Russian folklore (I know very well Russian music and “Opera”), but with some nuances of the European folklore, and above all the Alpine one, demonstrating how close is Europe also in this.
She moved out, didn’t have a chance (and was too young) to ask her but that was the moment in time. They were Beatles in this year, but they could not sing anymore Georgy Girl or Obladi-Oblada and the time run over both of them. Only difference, Ringo did not play a contrabass. I am not sure if you could sing jazz after GG or keep singing Be My Baby in parallel with Janis J. And, it started (maybe not) with an electric guitar and ‘a chorus of shouts and boos rained down on a man from a dismayed audience’. Somehow, I can imagine such situation when some probably felt happy not to listen such songs, while some others would be happy if they saw that he simply disappeared. For all of those – be my baby:
Usually: facts > interpretations
Milan: interpretations > facts
but, Milan and John, you shouldn’t write that. Australia? Good luck to Rob and Davidski.
This is my last poem:
A PROPOSITO DI UN GIUDIZIO DI RAVEL SU PUCCINI
“Pieno di talento, ma scrive
solo musica commerciale”.
Eppure io lo ritengo un grande,
come ritengo grande
il “facile” Caikovsky,
ma il non aver assaggiato
la fica si sente.
In altri tempi scrissi del
buon Luchino, buchino
maestro di cultura anale.
It is unbelievable how much could be seen from 814 BC perspective. Gio doesn’t want to tell us how far we are from the Latin language and where LL will meet the Sanskrit. He could ask his professor friend studying Sanskrit what is the meaning of Rg Veda. He may reach the worldwide glory. One half is already solved, he can resolve the second half. I already provided some directions in previous weeks, for e.g. he can start from his own neighbourhood, the meaning of the name of the city of Bergamo.
Some could ask a good question – why don’t you get this glory? I may or may not try, but to understand this, one should read the above initial comment by RS. So, I do not give a fcuk to anyone and anything. It is not my mission to enlighten the people, for me it is enough to make them a little bit happy by providing comments which they (say that) will avoid reading. I know that many think that it is cool to be dumb and why would I be distracting them. Others simply cannot hide their frustrations. But, I know that some realised that it is not for eating everything what is thrown at them. They can pick up few basics from my comments, turn their brains on and cross check them with a ruling mainstream.
For Gio’s collection, I wasn’t just skiing in Alto Adige Alps with Ötzi the Iceman, visiting La Scala and Duomo with Rocco and his brothers or singing operas after midnight with drunkards in Modena, there is one vinyl for him from my gold digging days. I also feel obliged by GeeJay’s gesture to reveal my true identity by the end of this thread (not! Ted the Mad).
What should I not write? That Judith Durham made a poor career choice? How many people still listen to jazz? Even Miles Davis stopped playing it. That poem was truly stomach-turning, btw.
I have seen that statue of the dog sitting on the tucker box. Like many things in the land of my birth, it is overhyped and truly underwhelming.
We could all do a sort of reverse-Spartacus thing – by turns stand up and shout: “I am not Ted the Mad!”
Unfortunately Prof. Romano Lazzeroni (1930-2020) is dead, and I am too old for beginning to study Sanskrit deeply. It wouldn’t be enough a life for learning that. But I should do that after my death, as in my penultime poem:
ETERNI INVERNI
Chiedo per tomba la mia casa
con tutti i libri, anche quelli ammucchiati
per terra e negli angoli.
La cucina e il bagno
non serviranno più,
ci sarà quindi più spazio per gli scaffali,
che essi possano essere messi in ordine
e facilmente reperibili.
Non mi servono nuove accessioni,
ho abbastanza del vecchio
per tutta l’eternità.
Nessun collegamento con i vivi,
neanche quelli unici cari.
Che non sappia quale destino
serbano loro gli dei.
If you of course don’t know Latin poet Horatius you loose great part of the meaning.
Bergamo, from Dizionario di toponomastica, UTET, 1990: perhaps from a prae-Latin base “barga” (there is a town named Barga in Garfagnana, Tuscany) or a Ligurian origin. For what I know these names with vowel -a- belong to the oldest European or Mediterranean languages. I found that the Maltese surname Ebeyer (probably from a Sicilian converted to Arabs-Muslims and migrated to Malta after the expulsion from Sicily and Maltese derived from the Arab from Sicily, and he stopped in writing to me when I said that he weren’t a Phoenician as the rich Slim wanted in funding National Geographic for its fake researches), from “Ebejjer”, a one year ship, derived from a word diffused all around the Mediterranean, also in the Alps: “berra”. I’d link these words with Sardinian and Basque with links also with Berber. I of course know Albanian “berra” (Fjalor i-Arbereshevet t’Italise).
Spartacus? Who was he? Thracian? The biggest nation in the world after Indians (Herodotus)? What’s happened with them? They’ve just disappeared overnight. Which language S. spoke?
Perhaps you know the movie “Spartacus”, when Jews, after WWII, funded it and others, think also to “Ben Hur” etc., just for exaltating themselves and going against Romans, and they did that until to-day, think to the Harvardians. But probably you suspect the the story in another, and that is only a fig leaf. I didn’t publish this, I sent that only to a few friends, but it is the time you know that:
“13 million aren’t a few. The same as Jews, and this does mean 27% of the Nobel prizes and a great part of the Wealth of the Nations. But ask yourself if without WWI and II and the planned Holocaust Israel would ever be born. Anyway I advise you not to play games at 6 million at a time. You’ll get only two chances. They fear to pay the Opium wars cheque yet”.
I wrote my thought, unfortunately in Italian, in our blog “DNA e Genealogie della Lunigiana storica”:
“Franco Bernardini: A proposito del legame tra Luni, Sesto Fiorentino e la Sardegna, Marcus, leggi cosa scrissi 3 anni fa: “Quindi, ho (abbiamo) un antenato comune assoldato in qualche legione romana!?…il Senato inviò il console Tiberio Sempronio Gracco al comando di 2 legioni di 5.200 fanti ciascuna, più 300 cavalieri, cui si associarono altri 1.200 fanti e 600 cavalieri fra alleati e Latini. In questa rivolta persero la vita 27.000 sardi (12.000 nel 177 e 15.000 nel 176 a.C.)”.
Gioiello Tognoni, Franco Bernardini, questo, purtroppo, spiega perché i Romani sono ancora oggi odiati e perché gli “Italiani” sono un popolo a “pezzi”. Ho trovato solo una persona non italiana sui blogs che giustificava, da Celta, i Romani con Brenno e l’umiliazione del Campidoglio. Ma usualmente la gente guarda la storia solo dal punto di vista che gli conviene. Io sono geneticamente “Romano” e non me ne vergogno, anche se per i Sardi uccisi sinceramente me ne dispiace (ma nessuna pietà per altri).
Don’t let “Ted the Mad” know that.
Of course ebejjer “one year sheep”…
Mr. Massey,
You are just going to have to accept that the Serbs invented the European civilization and are, therefore, the greatest people on earth, period.
Anyone who says otherwise is just a dirty un-Aryan Untermensch.
On a serious note, is it me or ever since Mr. Khan shifted his attention to Substack, is the commentary here at least 50% about the greatness of the Serbs?
Twinkle, twinkle, you did not mention one fact or counter-fact, just plain serbophobia. The fact is that European civilisation was born in Lepenski Vir/Vinca and that the oldest Euro language was formed there. This Vinca language evolved into Serbian and other languages. I think that it is very significant thing for all of us. Is this correct or not? There are genetic, linguistic, anthropology, archaeology, mythology evidence to confirm this. Specifically, you can discuss, for e.g., the year 814 BC (or any other) and tell everyone if something wrong. No one is preventing you or anyone else, to present your knowledge, opinion, assumptions or just asking questions in this (check the title) or any other thread.
Hi Twinkie. Good to see a friendly moniker.
It is mostly tl;dr and largely incomprehensible, but he is certainly not alone in that.
These days I just skip most of the commentary, unless I am in the mood to poke fun.
Of course I already knew there had been a settlement at Vinca and that there are some strange looking artefacts (no one has invoked aliens yet as far as I know, but it has to happen sooner or later). I also knew the finds don’t support the narrative we are getting, but then the world’s archaeologists, linguists and geneticists have been hugely remiss so far and not doing their duty. With time they will undoubtedly learn the error of their ways, to the eternal glory of the great white race.
Re: story about white race (btw. ‘race’ i.e. ‘rasa’ is a Serbian word) – in one intro text was mentioned that Anatolians had light skin (white), brown eyes, so as Yamnaya who were in addition blonde, while Vincans were dark skin, blue eyes. Because I asked a question, how many Yamnaya came to Europe to be able to bleach the whole Europe and teach them the IE language. My estimate is that was 1M+ of Europeans and cca 20K Yamnaya, so what is the narrative here?
When I say ‘Vinca’, it assumes the entire Danube post-Ice Age civilisation, which started 6-7000 years before the height of Vinca place itself and 8-9000 years before Yamnaya. Why no one asks the question – what’s happened during these 8000 years and why start history from Yamnaya nomads 5000 years ago?
When I say ‘Serbs’ it means ancient, Vinca people who spoke Serbian language and from whom evolved all Slavics, Scandinavians and probably many other, including modern Serb nation. R1b were found (Reich) in Danube civilisation 10 K years ago but no one explains how they found their way there. If (one estimate) more than 90% of people lived in Vinca during the Ice Age, than, maybe or maybe not, Yamnaya also came from Vinca, but the mainstream is silent. The language in Vinca evolved organically from the Palaeolithic up to today when is called Serbian. If someone asserts discontinuity, he should state, explain and prove this.
So, the narrative is comprehensive and logical (unlike the ‘Yamnaya’ mainstream narrative). Genes were combining during the history, but I agree with DA, they key is in the language. But, none is answering the questions. For e.g. in the above case, in the 814BC Latin language did not exist, but, it somehow later evolved from something (pra-language?) and established the contact with Sanskrit. Where is the ‘narrative’ here? Or, where was the contact btw Sanskrit and 3000+ years younger English or German? So many ‘narratives’ are missing (or they are falsifications) but, so far, no one found a hole or a lack of the logic in my ‘incomprehensive’ narrative.
Where are you wrong again? In thinking that there is a link between Vinca and Serbia, even in the language. Of course to-day Serbians may have some intake of the people who lived in Vinca, but the same many other peoples, included Italians and included me (demonstrated from MyTrueAncestry for instance). That Yamnaya, being recent, may have come from West (Vinca and not only) is just what I am supporting from many years. Not only R-L51 didn’t come from Yamnaya but I supposed that also my R-L23-Z2103, at least some subclades, the haplogroup of Yamnaya for excellence. Written thousands of letters about that. That IE and also hg. R1a did come from central Europe, closer to the Alps as R1b, is my theory from so long, also against Davidski. Hundreds of letters also about that. The mistake is to think that Serb of to-day derived directly from Vinca. Even though at Vinca (as in the Alps) people WHG spoke IE, it evolved elsewhere, easternmost, and came back to the Balkans recently. My theory is that if there was continuity, it is through the centum languages, and Latin did come from the pile dwellers of the Adriatic of course.
Gio, there is a genetic continuity from Lepenski Vir (cca 10000BC), Blagotin, Starcevo, Vinca (cca 5000BC) and another several hundreds of sites with the present. There is also a language continuity. I presented dozens of examples in the past and I can present another hundreds. If you knew more about ‘old Indian’, this would be much clearer to you. You avoid explaining the link btw Latin and Sanskrit. Alps? What was there? People did not live there during the Ice Age. There were several waves of migration from Vinca to today’s Italy, so as Scandinavia, British Isles, Asia Minor and all other directions. There was not a civilisation in Alps. What is the (P)IE, where it was formed (easternmost?) and in which period? Almost one million people lived in Balkan for all the time, how many people lived in Alps? Did they have metallurgy, agriculture, multistorey housing and temples, gold processing, cosmetics, mini-skirts, figurines, pottery, alphabet?
Why is wrong that modern Serbs had connections with Vinca, there is a genetic continuity, it assumes the language as well, unless you can prove the discontinuity. No one said that Vincans 100% transformed to modern Serbs. I think that the most of Europeans have origins in Danube plain. There is a good question which you can answer where and when I2 met R1a and formed ‘Slavics’. It is very simple to establish which modern language organically developed from the primal consonants and consonant groups (i.e. from pra-language) and which one is artificial or evolved from some other language. I asked you about ‘Bergamo’ but you did not explain its meaning. In the book Cratylus, Plato discusses with Socrates some words which (future) Greeks took from indigenous ‘barbarians’. These are Serbian words. There are thousands of old Serbian words in English and other languages. I already explained some – ghost, cat, med (honey), race, duh, pyre, father (padre), etc.
I didn’t write “incomprehensive”, I wrote “incomprehensible.”
1) When I said “Alps” I of course did mean “all around the Alps” for not saying only Italian Alps. There were people up there? I2 Riparo Tagliente 17000 ya, R1b1 Villabruna 14000 ya, R1 Les Iboussiéres 12000 ya, the same Oetzi 5300 ya lived all around the Alps.
2) Stop, please, to speak of the meaning of the words. The linguists who tried to reach the meaning of some word did that after a life of studies, and you find the meaning that you like. About Bergamo I did deep hypotheses about its origin. I speak of “hyptheses” because I know how it is difficult to reach the “truth”, that you buy at every suk.
3) About hg I2 many people are speaking about I-L621 as due to Slavs migrated to the Balkans from east. It is possible that it came from west before, as I think R1 did. I of course never denied that it could be 25000 ya in central Asia, but certainly at least 14000 ya it was in the “Italian refugium”, demonstrated from aDNA, and nothing proves your hypothesis.
4) I’ll try to understand, through my methods, the pathway of I-L621.
5) Anyway to say that Serb evolved in the Balkans and didn’t come from east (or central Europe) where Slavs formed is out of any reasoning.
Mr. Todorovic,
I’m totally with you on Serbia as the Ur-Heimat of the glorious white people. Hail Serbia and all that. Given your enormous erudition and singular genius on this matter, might I humbly suggest that you expound upon it in much greater detail on a blog of your own (which no doubt will attract many readers) instead of squandering your superb intellect on the likes of this comment section?
The readers here are not worthy of your words. Only your own blog could do them justice.
Mr Twinkie, whoever you are. I disagreed in many things with Milan Todorovic, but he got one merit, i.e. to recall the attention about Balkans (to me to go closer to Italy, the Alps and western Europe). Perhaps you like the agenda of the Harvardians, who have to justify a state born after 2000 years from people who had nothing to do with what they were before, if not through a book that I called the “Mein Kampf” of Jews (and if you think to what was born from there probably you’ll understand). I like Razib because he had the courage and the intellect to become an atheist after that reading. After all the questions remain, but at the light of the genetics, the evolution, what each of us does mean for “identity”.
Little Star, as usual one empty comment with empty words. Zero facts, questions, hypothesis, speculations, whatever. In my every comment I present a dozen of clear assertions which can be right or wrong. Everyone can object, correct, disregard or ignore. What did you expect under this thread title? So, you don’t have any opinion. Are you trying to impute me some racism? Maybe because ‘race’ and ‘serb’ have the same meaning so as other derived words (Russians, Prussians, Raseni-Etruscans, Thracians, etc.), but all this is above your head. You could just laugh but it seems that you are deeply frustrated because of something. Your advice is a rudeness directed at the blog owner not at me. Obviously, you and some other, have nothing to say but you propose the compulsory groupthink without any exception. When I dislike some blog, I leave without asking people which comments I don’t like to leave. In this sense, Walt, for e.g., is much more genuine and I am glad that I can contribute to his happy Gilmorness by posting comments which he will ignore (actually, I am sure that he is a very careful reader, so as you). It is possible to have a dialog with someone with very opposite opinions as in the case of the music lover Gio, with whom I have about ¾ disagreements. But, I respect his intellectual curiosity and energy and because he presents things which are results of his own thinking, not blindly and brainlessly adopted ‘mainstream’ falsifications.
There are longer videos, but these 2 minutes would be sufficient for anyone with a shred of brain:
or, those who have more time can read the book – The Mystery of the Danube Civilisation: The discovery of Europe’s oldest civilisation by Harald Haarmann. One excerpt (which can present what Yamnaya nomads found in Europe):
“In the 5th and early 4th millennia B.C., Old Europeans had towns with a considerable concentration of population, temples several stories high, a sacred script, spacious houses of four or five rooms, professional ceramicists, weavers, copper and gold metallurgists, and other artisans producing a range of sophisticated goods” (Gimbutas 1991: viii).
The documentary evidence of the cultural level attained by the Old Europeans presents many surprises and this includes a number of world firsts:
–The oldest city-size settlements (megasettlements) – significantly larger than Çatalhöyük in Anatolia or the oldest Mesopotamian cities – were founded in Old Europe.
–The oldest, continuously inhabited places in Europe are not cities such as Athens or Rome, where the earliest traces of settlement only date back to the 2nd millennium BCE; Larissa in Thessaly and Varna in Bulgaria are more than twice as old.
–The Old Europeans already had individual houses with over 100m2 of living space.
–The world’s first two-storey row houses were built in some of Old Europe’s larger settlements.
–The early potter’s wheel was developed in Old Europe; this technical innovation did not arrive in Mesopotamia until much later.
–The world’s first cylinder seals were utilised in Old Europe.
–The first kilns for the production of high-quality ceramic products, in which the temperatures could be controlled and regulated, were operated in Old Europe.
–Metal casting technology (copper smelting) was first used in Old Europe towards the end of the 6th millennium BCE but not until a few centuries later in Anatolia.
–The oldest gold artefacts were found in Old Europe and are dated to around 4500 BCE (the Gold Treasure of Varna).
–The earliest system of notation using conventional symbols was developed in Old Europe; this included symbols for numerical notation and for writing.
–Thousands of years before the Greeks, Old Europeans were pressing wine and producing olive oil; and they were also eating cherries, peas and parsley long before the Greeks.
The Greeks in particular adopted many of the Old European accomplishments and even took over their names.
Mr. Todorovic,
Your archeology version of Babylon Bee* is absolutely genius!
*I have been instructed properly now that Babylon is a Serbian word, but what is “bee” in Serbian and how about its no-doubt-close-sounding Vincasprach equivalent?
In my concluding comment, I would like to thank Razib for opening this thread. It has much greater significance than it was our first impression. We all, willingly or unwillingly, learnt a lot. It is tackling sc. ‘Old Europe’ taboo. I believe that it will gradually eliminate the ignorance and arrogance visible in some thread comments. Also, it will challenge the official mainstream thinking about our origins and our oldest history and culture. I am sure that some thinking people read this discussion and they will also make some useful conclusions. In my last comment I cited from the book a selective inventory of Old Europe accomplishments. We can project the vocabulary and the language at these cultural, technology and civilizational levels. Someone can ask the credibility of the assertion that poor Yamnaya (sc. ‘Indo-Germanishe’) language superseded the language(s) of much more developed culture across the whole Europe. With the introduction of Old Europe, we finally found the missing link which connects the present time with a pre-cultural period of human history. So, this thread can be a strong impetus for a further research on a global scale. The envelope is pushed but we still can expect some ignorance, in spite of numerous eye-opening assertions. Another learning from this thread is that the best results are accomplished by combining and cross-checking the genetic findings with linguistics, archaeology, anthropology, mythology and other aspects. On a personal note, I am glad that I had opportunity to discuss some issues with a man with open mind and a great energy and erudition, a music (&Latin) lover, Gio. Not bad feelings toward those who are not yet up to speed and who will catch-up and join us sooner rather than later.
You have me convinced. Where is my Kool-Aid cup?
@Twinkie – You actually want a Flavor Aid cup.
@MilanTodorovic
“When early farmers of the Vinca culture first sowed barley and wheat 7700 years ago in the rich soil of the Danube River and its tributaries, they changed more than their diet: They introduced a new way of life to the region. They crowded together in mud huts, living cheek by rump with aurochs, cows, pigs, and goats—and their poop—in settlements that eventually swelled to thousands of people. Togetherness brought a surge in diseases such as influenza, tuberculosis, and other maladies spread from animals to people and through early farming communities.
Now a new study of ancient DNA shows how the immune systems of those early farmers responded to this new, pathogen-ridden environment. The Neolithic Revolution was a “turning point” in the evolution of immune responses to infectious disease, according to a paper published today in eLife. The study suggests that in Europeans, evolution favored genes that throttled back inflammatory reactions to pathogens like influenza, restraining the hyperalert inflammatory response that can be deadlier than the pathogen itself. . . . .”
The paper is:
Jorge Domínguez-Andrés, et al., “Evolution of cytokine production capacity in ancient and modern European populations” eLife 10:e64971 (September 7, 2021). DOI: 10.7554/eLife.64971 https://elifesciences.org/articles/64971
Txs, oh!
PS>ohwilleke: In Blagotin were found the clay models of wheat grains, several pieces (dimensions from 7cm to 12cm), 8000 years old and the oldest urbanistic plan, 2000 years older than in Mesopotamia. Blagotin is 200 km away from Vinca and spread on 60.000 sqm. So far, only 300 sqm were researched (about 0.5%). In one probe only, it was discovered 18000 ceramic fragments. Blagotin was an important religious center, a sanctuary where the people of the entire Balkans and Europe gathered at certain times of the year. It has the temple, located within the Blagotin settlement, on a square 30 meters in diameter, in its very center, as a separate building. The temple was built 6000 years before Christ. It had an altar that was separated by a half-wall from a profane space in the shape of a cut mushroom, and where there were four thrones set up to show the absolute north-south. The settlement of Blagotin had all the characteristics of a large city with about 100 residential buildings, connected by streets that flowed towards the square and its center, i.e. the temple. Blagotin did not have a rampart and that is why it was named “Blagotin, the city of good people”.
I might be impressed if you offered a single scholarly link.
Although, the archaeological sites (Lepenski Vir-Iron Gates, Starcevo, Blagotin, Vinca and few hundreds of other places) have been researched only btw. 0.5 – 5%, and, in spite of the multidecade silence by academic community and their virtual (and real) taboo treatment, there are still many scholarly papers about ‘Old Europe’. In last couple years Reich’s lab started investigation of Danube civilisation sites, some papers were published. In the above comment I already mentioned the German linguist H.Haarmann and presented one excerpt from his book, but there are many shorter scholarly articles published in various magazines. I will mention only one author with his bibliography which can be a starting point for new researchers:
https://www.semanticscholar.org/author/D.-Bori%C4%87/48404928?sort=influence
Andrew – I can find no mention of Vinca in that paper you linked to, so either I have missed something or you must be quoting from something else.
Milan – So you *could* (big assumption on my part) have supported all of your extravagant claims with links to scholarly papers, but you have chosen not to do that and have left it to readers to do the research of papers for you.
Sorry, but I’m a working man, with a day job and a life outside of the Internet. I am not going to do a literature review on your behalf.
I can understand silence by archaeologists during the Yugoslav Wars, but they were over in the 1990s. If the region is as rich as you claim, archaeologists would be climbing over one another to investigate it, and spectacular finds would in turn attract the attention of the geneticists. Your implied conspiracy of silence/’taboo’ treatment just doesn’t ring true.
@andrew, to distract from one second from the Milan Todorovic show (no doubt there will be some “witty” epithet in consequence of my remark), interesting that this coincides and perhaps conflicts with Wartberg study which found HLA divergence between HG rich Wartberg culture and modern people –
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01627-4 –
“In addition, the Niedertiefenbach individuals exhibited a distinct human leukocyte antigen gene pool, possibly reflecting an immune response that was geared towards detecting viral infections.”.
“Interestingly, several of the alleles that are less common today (e.g., A*02:01, B*27:05, C*01:02, DQB1*03:01, and DRB1*08:01) are associated with higher resistance to viral pathogens (e.g., HIV, HCV, influenza A, and herpesvirus) and often also with higher susceptibility to bacterial infections or complications thereof”.
“Their high frequencies in Niedertiefenbach may thus reflect the considerable HG-related ancestry proportion in the population. The alleles were potentially maintained at this frequency at that time because of their functional uniqueness, including a higher sequence divergence as well as a unique repertoire of presented antigens. Both of these properties should confer an advantage in fighting diverse viruses and other pathogens. Later on, they may have lost their relative fitness advantage, e.g., because pathogens adapted to these most common alleles in a process of negative frequency-dependent selection and were replaced by alleles beneficial against newly emerging human pathogenic bacteria, such as Yersinia pestis. “
It might be plausible that cytokine reactions are downregulated in response to increasing levels of lethal viruses, but would we expect that also to cause HLA variation to shift away from variants that are adapted to responses to viral pathogens?
@andrew on that paper, I would note as well about that print that the linear relationships of declining disease susceptibility between pre-Neolithic and post-Neolithic appear largely driven by 4x early Upper Paleolithic sample. See – https://iiif.elifesciences.org/lax:64971%2Felife-64971-fig2-v1.tif/full/1500,/0/default.jpg
(These would probably be some very early samples like Ust-Ishim, Kostenki14, Tianyuan, Oase?)
I’m not sure how well that would replicate with a sequence from 20kya or mesolithic to present. The obviously big outliers of disproportionately high susceptibility seem to be pretty early in their sequence.
In the upper plots they plot the Upper Paleolithic samples in different bins, then place them in the same bin with Mesolithic people 30kya later in the significance test! Perhaps statistically driven by very strange. If we want to know “What agriculture did” then need to know what people after agriculture were like compared to people immediately before, not comparing agriculturalists to some set of people over 40 thousand years before agriculture…
JM> I made my concluding statement; however, I am just curious about one or two extravagant claims I made.
(Very) Optionally, I know that you have a life outside of the Internet but I would ask, if it is on the top of your mind, for some possible mainstream links to scholarly sources related to, for e.g., the time and place where the most populous group in Europe (Slavs) were formed and about their migration to Balkan which no one noticed, where were Yamnaya before 3100BC, where they formed their (proto)Indo-Germanishe language, how they spread their language across the Europe (maybe by applying DA’s ‘patron-client’ concept(?), considering that his previous – YA elite > EU elite and subsequently EU elite downward failed), how blondish Yamnaya transferred their ‘inability to mutate’ (i.e. their ‘whiteness’) to all Europeans, who also became ‘unable to mutate’, i.e. ‘white’ (links with approx. numbers of both would help to assess the feasibility of such grandioso project), what was doing R1b in Vinca 10K years ago, how and when they reached the steppe, who were Aryans (hope that scholarly research for 200 years gave some results), etc. Maybe all previous is not extravagant but could be just moronic.
Don’t get stressed but you may answer with a little help from your Kool friends. Otherwise, have a nice life and we may catch-up at Optus for a schooner of Swan while cheering the Demons in a Grand finals. Stay Kool (or Flavoured? or whatever).
Desperately trying not to be too stressed, what is on the top of my mind is this – if you can explain the time signature, I will buy you a case of Tsingtao Beer. I am assuming you can count up to 12, for which you need more than 10 fingers.
With an extra case if you can tell me what key he is playing in.
Sol mayor? I can tell you about Brigians (Phrygians) in Peloponnese in ancient times (with time signature). They brought first musical instruments to today’s Greece before future Greeks came there. I attended several solo concerts of PdL in Europe and one joint with John McLaughlin and Larry Coryell. Dogs are wining SF (currently 80:36 in Q3) will play Demons at Subiaco.
Key is wrong. You get one point for mentioning Phrygian. That’s all.
Entre dos aguas was a simple rumba that Paco de Lucia composed on the spur of the moment because he needed one track to complete an album, and to his dismay it became his biggest ever selling hit among the global audience who had no understanding of Flamenco – most people in Flamenco don’t even recognise the rumba as a Flamenco compas; it’s regarded as like Flamenco for idiots, or foreigners, which amount to pretty much the same thing. If you were trying to impress me by posting that, you obviously failed miserably.
Am I leaving impression that I need to impress someone? Give me one example from gnxp? Mentioned PdL only because he discovered the guy. Pointless discussion.
The reason for this very, very last comment is at its end. After an unsuccessful attempt to extract one ‘extravaganza’ pointer for deeper exploration, just to close the circle started with Lesander’s (Alexander) dynasty. His progenitor Perdika, who, in 710BC, created the kingdom and gave the name Makedonia (‘poppy valley’) had a brother. His name was Europe. He had a principality at the upper stream of the Vardar river. He founded a city and gave it the name Europe. It is the first city with this name. From this city/principality the continent Europe got its name. Upon their arrival to Balkan, all what (future) Greeks could see on the north were Serbian speaking tribes and their lands. They were ‘Europe’ for them. There is also a legend of the goddess Europe in Crete, whom the god Bak put on her back and took away to be his girl. This Bak was actually later Romans Bacchus, the first Aryan leader. This ‘Europe’ was visible on a map in one of the books presented by Razib. In some other thread we will see why the name of Tehran at one point of time was Europe.
As a preview, after Lesander got poisoned, their dukes divided his ‘pan-tzarstvo’ (Empire). Seleukic got Mesopotamia and because he was originally from ‘Europe’, he gave this name to Tehran. The other duke, (P)Tolomey got Egypt where he founded his dynasty. The last member of his dynasty was Cleopatra.
So, it seems that a political incorrectness costed him his commenting. We wish him good health and long life but there is an Orthodox requiem for atheist Gio’s commenting:
Re: From “Eurogenes blog” but not from Mr Eurogenes
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:13 am
by Gioiello
dartraighe wrote:
The earliest M269 sample dated to 4,000 BC was found in Bulgaria and if the pathway of M269>L15>L151 into Bohemia was from Bulgaria then it would be through Serbia>Croatia> Slovenia> Austria> Czech Republic!!!
I don’t know where you find a sample of aDNA in Bulgaria 4000 BC, i.e. 6000 years old when YFull gives the separation of the R-M269 subclades at 5600 ybp.
R-M269 is found in two subclades: R-M269-PF7562 and R-M269-PF7562-PF7563. As usual (as I have said many times) if the separation is very old probably only 1 subclade survives, if more recently probably 2 subclades survive, and one is tiny and the other huge. This of course if the haplotypes lived in the same place and in the same people.
Of course these two subclades survived after the separation in two different places, and the tiny one (R-M269-PF7562*), even though could seem the oldest, actually is the younger, and that it is found easternmost doesn’t mean that the origin of R-M269* is in the east, i.e. closer to the Caucasus rather than western Europe. The surviving samples of this subclade aren’t older as to their separation than 3600 ybp in the Caucasus and 3500 in central Asia, very likely migrated up there with the satem Indo-Europeans from eastern Europe.
The oldest survived samples are just the R-M269-PF7562-PF7563*, found in the Balkans and Italy above all, i.e. westernmost, and the oldest samples separated 4600 ybp, and the samples in YFull tree are id:YF86865RUS [RU-MOS]new, id:YF77302UKR, id:YF64729SAU, [SA-03], id:YF07420ITA [IT-BA]. None is in Bulgaria or the Balkans, but in Southern Italy (and of course we have to ascertain his oldest ethnicity) or Russia and Ukraine (the sample in Arabia did come very likely with the known migrations from eastern Europe through different pathways we know very well from other haplogroups). Are these samples in Russia the witness of and origin of the whole haplogroup? Of course it is possible, but we would have to find some witness in the aDNA to be sure, because the subclades are above all in the Balkans and westernEurope and the places where they migrated from up there.
Subclade R-M269-PF7562-PF7563-BY16680 demonstrates a presence in the Balkans at least 4500 ybp and the Jewish cluster R-A11720 is of course introgressed in Europe. R-Z29758 seems 4400 ybp old in Albania but with a contemporaneous presence in Italy (massive and differentiated in Sardinia but also overall). The huge Albanian presence downstream R-PF7566 (with migrations in the Arab world) is only 3500 ybp old, but I have my relative Fabrizio Federighi (from the same family did come the famous Craig Federighi) tested only partially, and his line could have separated before.
From these data nothing is in favour of an origin in Bulgaria or in the Caucasus rather than close to Italy and the Alpine region as I said for all the other subclades. It remains true that all the other upstream subclades (R-L754, R-V88, R-M73 etc) seem to emanate from the Alpine region.
“So, it seems that a political incorrectness costed him his commenting. We wish him good health and long life but there is an Orthodox requiem for atheist Gio’s commenting”.
I hear only now this “Requiem”. I read your post some days ago, but through my mail and didn’t know that there was also the music. Of course I am an atheist, convinced without any possible doubt, but that doesn’t prevent me from thinking that Gregorian chant is one of the highest expression of music or the believing Bach the greatest composer or Orlando di Lasso (my son named Orlando his son in honour of him beyond the Flemish mother) and many others, all geniuses (I was surprised how the “barbaric” Franks had a little later geniuses as Perotinus etc.). Of course this music remember me the great Slav church music and how the great “Boris Godunov” does spring from that. I hear also the great Jewish religious music too. But at this point tell me if your odd etymologies foresee in your “pan-tzarstvo” the name of Caesar and before perhaps Etruscan *Chaisre > Caere.
Glad to see you back Gio, I am happy that I was wrong. Cheers!
PS: Will write about Serbian word ‘tzar’, Caesar is a later derivative.
there are almost 150 million English and their descendants around the world and about 13 million of Serbs.
That’s interesting. I would have expected a more robust demographic bonus for being the world’s firstest and bestest kangz.
WHAT HAPPENED
Re: What is happening
Sent: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:09 pm
From: dartraighe
To: Gioiello
etrusco posted this today at anthrogenica.
“Palaeogenetic studies focusing on hunter-gatherer individuals revealed that several population transformations took place across Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Europe (Fu et al., 2016; Posth et al., 2016). Previous analyses of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genomes have shown that, while some of the pre-existing mtDNA diversity was lost during the LGM, most of the European maternal gene pool survived this severe population bottleneck. However, a population turnover was observed
through a sharp shift in mtDNA haplogroup frequencies around 14.5 ka cal BP, coinciding in time with the Bølling/Allerød (Posth et al., 2016). Nuclear DNA analyses later demonstrated that this genetic discontinuity was due to the spread of individuals sharing distinctive affinity to present-day populations from the Near East. This incoming genetic component largely replaced the ancestry identified in older Magdalenian-related individuals from central Europe (Fu et al., 2016). The oldest Journal Pre-proof genome harbouring the Near Eastern link is Villabruna, an Epigravettian individual retrieved in Riparo Villabruna, Veneto Prealps and dated to 14.2-13.8 ka cal BP (Aimar et al., 1992; Vercellotti et al., 2008). Two demographic scenarios were proposed to explain the expansion of the Villabruna- related genetic cluster, and involved either (1) a long-range migration from the Near East to Europe, which took place at least 6 ka years before the Neolithic farming expansion, or (2) a double genetic dispersal of a southern European population, both towards the east and the west, which was responsible for drawing these distinct ancestries together. Mesolithic individuals from the Iron Gates region in Serbia and Romania showed evidence of interaction with Near Eastern populations, as some of them carried mtDNA haplogroups that are most prevalent in ancient and contemporary individuals from the Near East (Mathieson et al., 2018). However, recent genomic analyses of a 15ky old individual from central Anatolia suggested that the Iron Gates group did not simply derived from a unidirectional gene flow from Near Eastern to European hunter-gatherers. On the contrary, an additional genetic influx from populations ancestral to southern Europeans into the Near East has been proposed (Feldman et al., 2019). Ancient human DNA data of individuals older that 14 ka cal BP is still missing from the Balkans and the GAPR impeding a genetic characterization of the groups living in this area during the Gravettian and early Epigravettian. Nevertheless, described genetic contacts with groups from southwestern European fringes might provide an indirect evidence for the presence of the Villabruna-related component in southern Europe well before the Bølling/Allerød. In fact, it has been recently shown that the genetic make-up of hunter-gatherers from Iberia dated after ~19 ka cal BP was formed through the admixture of two divergent ancestries. One ancestry was associated with Magdalenian individuals older than 15 ka cal BP and the other with members of the Villabruna-related cluster, so far only younger than 14 ka cal BP. Interestingly, the oldest representative of the Magdalenian-related cluster, dated to around 18.6 ka cal BP from El Miron cave in Spain, was found to be substantially admixed with a group related to the Villabruna individual (Villalba-Mouco et al., 2019). This suggests the arrival of the Villabruna-related genetic component in Iberia before 14 ka cal BP, implying that this cluster was widespread in southern Europe several thousands of years before the age of its oldest genome described until now. Taken together, these palaeogenetic results support the idea that, from at least 19 ka cal BP, southern European populations were broadly interconnected across the GAPR and beyond. Additional genome-wide data of individuals older than 14 ka cal BP from this region is essential to understand the distribution of such ancestry through time in southern European climatic refugia.”
dartraighe
Posts: 3261
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm
This of course is a quotation done from etrusco and he should have said from where. He is the unique person I made him ban from a blog of ours, “R1b-L51-PF7589”, because he was one of the persons who wait for understanding who is right for sharing his position and to say that that was his, whereas I had a position, mine, and fought for that against all even though gaining all the banishments possible. Probably he is realizing that I was right and all the others wrong.
He uses many nicknames, beyond etrusco, old europe, Lorenzo Bertini, Immacolato Maria and others, but his true name is Paolo Sizzi.
@iffen – Not the best. The Tesla clone failed miserably in his attempt at immortality, and cried like a spoiled child during the last few change overs when it was obvious the match was lost.